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  • #15,241
  • Apr 22, 2023 5:19pm Apr 22, 2023 5:19pm
what comes before the investment for me: here StocknetInstitute
- can I do the business/tax from my country Germany? (allowed, profitable)
- who are the contractual partners? Is the adress clear? (Ground Floor J33 The Avenues Team Valley Trading Estate, Tyne and Wear, NE11 0NJ, UK
maybe I can read this fully, which town???
- who represents them? (cant found legal representative of the company)
- is there a compliance office? (in case of dispute - who cares? same people like former incompetent?)
- Does the office try to competently answer my questions (or do they dismiss you as annoying?)
- do I get a contract text (pdf), not fluent on the web?
- Will payment probably be refused (because the Rules, FAQ ...can always be interpeted against me?)

After this: I have to assess whether I can do it (challenge, conditions, fee, transaction costs) and whether I find it consistent.
  • #15,242
  • Apr 22, 2023 5:37pm Apr 22, 2023 5:37pm
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} You not allowed to use EA's on the MFF Accelerated. On their site the price is $99.
That’s the problem I have with MFF’s accounts other than Evaluation. So the 2 phase Evaluation with MFF is the only one worth it to me.
  • #15,243
  • Apr 22, 2023 5:45pm Apr 22, 2023 5:45pm
Quoting forexbali
{quote} I wish you to make so much money for the next step: leave U.S. for better countries like in Europe there are many with 0% capital gain tax, or Netherlands for personal account you could arrive to 1.75% max income tax. While for PropTraders UAE-Dubai is the best option, but there are plenty more for 0% income tax or lower income tax let's say at max 10%. Also there are many prop offerings "crypto" direct withdrawals but avoid the tax, even if they don't report, is not a good solution. U.S. taxation is very complicate. Years ago I studied...
I’ve got other reasons I don’t want to leave the USA: family, friends, business clients, etc. But for us prop firms are not capital gains tax, because it’s not your capital and you don’t own the account. You are paid a commission for your work, so it’s taxed as regular income. This is good and bad. It’s bad because the tax rate is much higher. But it’s also a good thing because you can run it as a business and deduct all of your expenses as a home business if you do it properly, including your entry fees (if they aren’t refundable to begin with), and there is no FBAR or FinCEN reporting for funds in foreign accounts because you aren’t trading your own funds. I’m no accountant, so definitely get advice from your own accountant, but I’ve been self employed for more than two decades and one of my clients is an accountant, so that helps. ;-)
  • #15,244
  • Apr 22, 2023 10:26pm Apr 22, 2023 10:26pm
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} Your risk per pip on your personal account starts to increase exponentially after a while and that would under normal circumstances make you lower your risk. It is also very difficult to make money with using a 10 pip SL. In normal life your risk per pip would start to actually decrease quite early on because trading own funds is mentally much more demanding than trading investor funds. This provided that you are not a multi millionaire who likes to gamble. You need to keep in mind that you would have only invested some $700 of your own...
I cannot flip $700 to 2.5 million. I never claimed I could. However, these instant funding firms are asking you to do just that. You understand the math of the challenge requiring you to flip an account, but do not understand the instant funding requiring you to more than flip an account but yet only double your equity. You are funding them, they are not funding you!
Instead of max losss, let's talk equity......you have a 10,000 instant funded account which cost 500, your max loss is $500....what % of your equity are you risking per trade? What is that number in $$$? Now assume you are trading a $500 account on your own, what are you risking per trade in $$$?
I am not stating that the 2 step challenge is for everyone. I am simply statimg that if you are not going to use the challenge model, you are actually losing money by trading with an instant funding model vs. trading on your own. That is the only point I am making.
  • #15,245
  • Apr 22, 2023 10:55pm Apr 22, 2023 10:55pm
Quoting AaronPriest
{quote} I’ve got other reasons I don’t want to leave the USA: family, friends, business clients, etc. But for us prop firms are not capital gains tax, because it’s not your capital and you don’t own the account. You are paid a commission for your work, so it’s taxed as regular income. This is good and bad. It’s bad because the tax rate is much higher. But it’s also a good thing because you can run it as a business and deduct all of your expenses as a home business if you do it properly, including your entry fees (if they aren’t refundable to begin...
Hi AaronPriest,
Absolutely correct my friend.
  • #15,246
  • Apr 23, 2023 12:07am Apr 23, 2023 12:07am
Quoting forexbali
{quote} I will check them, but never heard here somebody using them. Can you send a link so I don't go in some scam pishing sites? thanks.
I use Stocknet as well ... any profit you make is withdrawable at any time ... plus it does not get taken off the accumulated % return ie scale up target remains in tact. They do KYC upfront and pay on time when requested. There is no affiliate available which I believe is a plus.
  • #15,247
  • Apr 23, 2023 2:08am Apr 23, 2023 2:08am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} I cannot flip $700 to 2.5 million. I never claimed I could. However, these instant funding firms are asking you to do just that. You understand the math of the challenge requiring you to flip an account, but do not understand the instant funding requiring you to more than flip an account but yet only double your equity. You are funding them, they are not funding you! Instead of max losss, let's talk equity......you have a 10,000 instant funded account which cost 500, your max loss is $500....what % of your equity are you risking per trade?...
Let's look at your numbers a bit more. On the left you have CTI making a 163K profit. Now, let's replace the right side with 2-step 100k non-scaling funded account. It scales 6 times with 80% revshare, 7% target as with CTI. Total profit for the right side is 42K, net 33.6K. Does it still look like that the instant funding account is a total rip off when the net profit is 120k more from CTI than from a 2-step challenge?

The basic idea with comparing trading your own account with a prop firm account is flawed. Your are comparing a solution with 0 risk to something with 100% own risk. A more relevant question would be, do I want to make 160k without almost any financial risk or for example 300k with 100% risk to my own equity.

Hopefully you can see it now after having accidentally "proved" that under all circumstances trading your own account is by far more profitable than using any kind of a prop firm.

It would be much more beneficial for the community to compare different type of prop accounts and providers instead of trying to push your own agenda for 2-step challenges.
  • #15,248
  • Apr 23, 2023 3:37am Apr 23, 2023 3:37am
Quoting TraderTero
It would be much more beneficial for the community to compare different type of prop accounts and providers instead of trying to push your own agenda for 2-step challenges.
-I think, nobody is trying to push any agenda here.

With instant funding, you are flipping an account (usually twice), just to get your money back. This is actually worse than refundable challenge models because you are having to generate, on average, 120% to 150% profit in order to get your refund, in lieu of the 200%+ that you would need for instant (in most cases).

So, with that consideration, if you do the same thing with your personal account (flip it at least once, and withdraw half of the profits so that you are trading risk-free), and compare it to an instant funding account, the instant funding account is not going to benefit you more than trading your personal account over the long-term because of the unfavorable profit-split. The math on this has already been proven.

The reason challenge models are pushed so heavily here is because they offer the best value for your money by giving you up to 25x your buy-in to work with. You cannot compete with that on any instant funding or personal account if you start out with the same amount of investment capital. The math does not lie here.

The only scenario in which a reputable prop firm challenge model would not be better than trading your own account, is if you had so much money in your personal account, that going through the process of setting things up with a prop firm would just not be worth your time and effort. That's it.

For most people, that would require a balance that is far greater than what is actually available to them. So, playing the prop firm game allows regular traders the opportunity that they would not otherwise have without spending a great deal of time and very fortunate trading to obtain. It is a no-brainer for most people.

The whole argument that instant models are best because they involve less risk is incorrect. It may be easy to claim that challenge models are similar to gambling, but in order to make that claim, you would need to ignore the fact that not all challenge models have 30 to 60-day time requirements. Some challenge models allow 1-year of time and some even do not have any time requirements whatsoever, which throws the gambling theory out the window.

So although the risk may vary between challenge models and instant models, the value, benefit and growth-potential of the challenge model is far superior and the better choice for most traders.
  • #15,249
  • Apr 23, 2023 3:39am Apr 23, 2023 3:39am
Quoting Vitore
{quote} For some reason the CEO resists to provide a simple and clear answer. He never said how the rule should be interpreted. He even responded to my direct question yet without saying yes or no. (Though I agree it is 99% Yes = all existing red news) In the past i discussed DCA with him as he is against it as well. It was the same story. He never explained what exactly he considers to be DCA though it is one of their prohibited trading strategies. You could always guess or assume but you never got a simple answer. Its all just smoke and mirrors....
So BeSpoke seems another prop firm with enough general and vague rules to be able to kick you out when you start to cause loses in their P&L.
  • #15,250
  • Edited 4:52am Apr 23, 2023 4:25am | Edited 4:52am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I think, nobody is trying to push any agenda here. With instant funding, you are flipping an account (usually twice), just to get your money back. This is actually worse than refundable challenge models because you are having to generate, on average, 120% to 150% profit in order to get your refund, in lieu of the 200%+ that you would need for instant (in most cases). So, with that consideration, if you do the same thing with your personal account (flip it at least once, and withdraw half of the profits so that you are trading risk-free),...
Please read again what I wrote. This is not a question of some math formula. I have not claimed that Instant funding accounts are the best because they involve no risk. However, it's a totally different ball game trading your own funds compared prop firm "funds". I have also said that the 30-day challenges make people to gamble, not the unlimited accounts which I actually thing they are very good.

I have explained several times that the comparing trading to your own account is useless but if you guys insist, the stats presented only proves that no prop firm account can beat trading your own account. Trading your own account to 2.5M is being presented as a fact but then denied being a fact.

The key issue here is all the time the risk involved using your own equity whether or not it has been generated by trading profits or not. Compare products with the same risk level, not to something which as 100% more risk. Of course it can be harder to reach targets between different account types but a lot also depends on the strategy you are using. Over simplifying things does not serve anyone good.
  • #15,251
  • Edited 5:04am Apr 23, 2023 4:49am | Edited 5:04am
Quoting TraderTero
Please read again what I wrote. This is not a question of some math formula. ... Over simplifying things does not serve anyone good.
-I have read your comments. My comments still stand. Feel free to read again what I wrote. Up to you. Changing your position does not serve anyone well, either.

Anyway, this is simple. It does not have to be complex. If you trade your own account, and double it, and then withdraw half of the money so that you are trading risk-free, then NO ONE here is dumb enough to say that trading with a prop is better (assuming that the account size is the same). Because obviously, you are keeping 100% of the profits while trading risk-free and not having to adhere to any rules or guidelines.

However, that is not what we are talking about. Why? Simply put, the amount required in order to do that is not the same. It is much faster and less-risky to go with a prop firm. Using MFF's 300k account as an example, which offers 36k draw-down allowance, if you were to trade that on your own account, you would need to risk 36k of your own money, and then flip it in order to trade risk-free. With the prop, you only need to risk 1.3k of your own money and flip it in order to trade risk-free. The trade-off for dealing with profit-split and some rules is worth it and a no-brainer for most.

Not only that, but because I only risk 1.3k of my own money to get a 36k account, I can choose to risk more in order to double, triple or even 10x that amount, all without risking anywhere near your 36k.

Comparing is not useless, whether you are comparing challenge to instant to personal. It all matters. But you cannot ignore the math or the facts.

Quoting TraderTero
Compare products with the same risk level, not to something which as 100% more risk.
-Okay. Take your 1.3k and put it into an instant or personal and I will take my 1.3k and put it into a challenge model. Let's see who can reach 36k first. The dollar amount and initial risk is the same. However, over time, my approach will involve less risk in order to reach the same goal because I will be able to get there much faster while taking fewer trades because I can leverage the bigger account size. Why? Because risking 1% of 36k is not comparable to risking 1% of 1.3k or whatever you end up with on your instant account.
  • #15,252
  • Apr 23, 2023 5:29am Apr 23, 2023 5:29am
Quoting Fagin
{quote} Hi I have had a Rapid demo and a Rapid live. It’s not a 100k account it’s a demo that pays 12% and a 10k live that pays 85/90% after you qualify. So if my maths are right the 100k is really equivalent to a 12k 100:1 margin account with a drawdown of $600 daily. It’s not really worth it and I don’t think warrants 1st place. The 3 day rule needs marking up as a major negative in my opinion. Also none of the staff knows how it works and I’ve had major problems with them in past getting withdrawals also I gave up trying to explain to them numerous...
thank you for your review

the rapid is 12% on 100K so it is like 12.5k with 100% payout.

at the price of 749$ is like to pay 119$ for a 2.000$ account comparing to the accelerated 2000$ at 49$
the first is 12% max drawdown the second 5% so if I calculate right is like to pay the rapid 59$ for 2000$

but the rapid at some point will give you an additional account live with payout of 80% of 10K and this will increase over the time adding the profits of the 100K demo.

for what you wrote, we should keep in mind the 3 day rule, that i guess is you have to trade 3 days per week? correct?

And sorry, again, I forgot to say the most important thing: RAPID will refund your fee, so at some point it will be 0% cost. This again would make it better of the accelerated funding.
in holiday till end of November
  • #15,253
  • Apr 23, 2023 5:33am Apr 23, 2023 5:33am
Quoting Isabella_D
what comes before the investment for me: here StocknetInstitute - can I do the business/tax from my country Germany? (allowed, profitable) - who are the contractual partners? Is the adress clear? (Ground Floor J33 The Avenues Team Valley Trading Estate, Tyne and Wear, NE11 0NJ, UK maybe I can read this fully, which town??? - who represents them? (cant found legal representative of the company) - is there a compliance office? (in case of dispute - who cares? same people like former incompetent?) - Does the office try to competently answer my questions...
do you trade DAX? if yes, do you trade it with MFF? how can they do 0 spread sometime in the day on dax? I have seen this in my test of MFF challenge, and I wanted to understand how it is possible. I have seen even OIL with 0 spread. But more curious about the DAX.
in holiday till end of November
  • #15,254
  • Apr 23, 2023 5:34am Apr 23, 2023 5:34am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I have read your comments. My comments still stand. Feel free to read again what I wrote. Up to you. Changing your position does not serve anyone well, either. Anyway, this is simple. It does not have to be complex. If you trade your own account, and double it, and then withdraw half of the money so that you are trading risk-free, then NO ONE here is dumb enough to say that trading with a prop is better (assuming that the account size is the same). Because obviously, you are keeping 100% of the profits while trading risk-free and not having...
I don't gamble with any funds regardless of the origin. Right now I have 150K in funded accounts, 350K in unlimited 1 -or 2-step challenges and around 10k instant funding scaling accounts and a 100k MFF Rapid account. The only thing I refuse to use are the traditional time limited 2-step challenges.
  • #15,255
  • Apr 23, 2023 5:43am Apr 23, 2023 5:43am
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} I don't gamble with any funds regardless of the origin. Right now I have 150K in funded accounts, 350K in unlimited 1 -or 2-step challenges and around 10k instant funding scaling accounts and a 100k MFF Rapid account. The only thing I refuse to use are the traditional time limited 2-step challenges.
May be this can help. Thanks to show your portfolio.

Let's say you want an additional 50K account to add to your portfolio. Going instant you would need 2500$ with MFF
While you could just add a 50K 2 phase challenge for just 250$ or less. (let's say phase 2 MFF no limit)

You would save 2250$. You will copy the trades of other accounts on it and you just forget.
IF you pass the challenge you will get 50K account with max 8% drawdown.

You could have done on MFF 13% profit on 50K but payout is 50% so a net profit of around 3250$

3250-2250=1000$ more only to trade directly a 50K account with 5% max DD instead of 8% max DD

So you risk 250$ and not 2500$
You make profit of just 1000$ less passing the challenge.

If something go wrong on your IF funding you lost forever 2500$ while with 2 phase you have other 9 chances to growth your portfolio.

Of for scaling that is faster I can't say nothing, this is 1 point more for the Instant.

Now imagine for a 400K account: you can do the same with just 1800$
You will never do a instant funding risking 40K for a 400K account, 40K are gone in one day if you had a bad day or bad month.
Would you spend 400K to make 10 times in a year a 400K instant? I doubt. I think there are more chances you would risk 18000$ to make
10 times a 400K account phase 2.

Then you know how it works, or I think, when you have a portfolio of 3-4 account, you can use 1 to be more speculative and try to make some quick profit
to finance faster your growth and other challenges. It's gambling to push a bit, but if you focus on it and you have a bit of luck, would be different to push on an account of 300K or 400K you paid 1300-1800$ then to risk on a 5% max drawdown 400K instant funding.

I think this is the reason why there are not on the market instant funding from top prop firms of 300-400K.

The biggest of 100K of FT+ is also with trailing drawdown.... so doesn't count. The max is the accelerated of MFF for 50K.
in holiday till end of November
  • #15,256
  • Apr 23, 2023 5:51am Apr 23, 2023 5:51am
Quoting forexbali
Let's say you want an additional 50K account to add to your portfolio. Going instant you would need 2500$ with MFF
-No. You cannot use account balance. You must use draw-down allowance. The account balance is mostly fiction. It could be $300 million and it would not matter much. The draw-down allowance is what matters the most.

Quoting forexbali
Of for scaling that is faster I can't say nothing, this is 1 point more for the Instant.
-Again, no. Because in order to scale on instant, you need to generate 200% profit on the account, in most cases. If you did that on a challenge model, and decided to keep half of the profits in the account to simulate the same kind of scaling, you would get there faster because the allowable draw-down is larger, providing for faster growth-potential.
  • #15,257
  • Apr 23, 2023 5:52am Apr 23, 2023 5:52am
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} I don't gamble with any funds regardless of the origin. Right now I have 150K in funded accounts, 350K in unlimited 1 -or 2-step challenges and around 10k instant funding scaling accounts and a 100k MFF Rapid account. The only thing I refuse to use are the traditional time limited 2-step challenges.
By the way. Don't feel attacked by anybody. I understand why you like the instant funding and I understand your point. And I'm sure that it can work for many traders and I know the reason why.

But Phase 1 can be even worse that an instant funding. Phase 1 has a trailing drawdown locked to initial balance at some point.

Something that doesn't happen even in instant funding, where when you scale you get again an absolute drawdown.
in holiday till end of November
  • #15,258
  • Apr 23, 2023 5:58am Apr 23, 2023 5:58am
Quoting forexbali
By the way. Don't feel attacked by anybody.
-Nobody is attacking anyone. But this discussion has been had so many times, that it is like beating a dead, rotting corpse at this point. There are no agendas here, just facts. People can choose to do what they want, of course, but we should not allow for discussion that may be misleading or incorrect, especially since many traders read this thread for information.
  • #15,259
  • Apr 23, 2023 7:08am Apr 23, 2023 7:08am
Quoting forexbali
{quote} do you trade DAX? if yes, do you trade it with MFF? how can they do 0 spread sometime in the day on dax? I have seen this in my test of MFF challenge, and I wanted to understand how it is possible. I have seen even OIL with 0 spread. But more curious about the DAX.
I'm missing the connection to my post here However, to answer your question: as far as I know, MFF does not use any demo accounts in the funded real phase --> not allowed in Germany (financial broker function).
This underscores my statement above: before you start thinking about minor advantages when choosing a provider--> ?can you basically control it or are there country-related obstacles. And yes, I also trade DAX, Oil, Gold. 0 Spread? no idea what you mean.[/quote]
  • #15,260
  • Apr 23, 2023 7:16am Apr 23, 2023 7:16am
Quoting forexbali
{quote} May be this can help. Thanks to show your portfolio. Let's say you want an additional 50K account to add to your portfolio. Going instant you would need 2500$ with MFF While you could just add a 50K 2 phase challenge for just 250$ or less. (let's say phase 2 MFF no limit) You would save 2250$. You will copy the trades of other accounts on it and you just forget. IF you pass the challenge you will get 50K account with max 8% drawdown. You could have done on MFF 13% profit on 50K but payout is 50% so a net profit of around 3250$ 3250-2250=1000$...
That's why I have those unlimited challenge accounts. The instant funding well scaling accounts are there just for scaling risk free hopefully to 1-2 mil each. The 50K challenge account won't scale to much anything let's say within 12 months whereas I might be able to scale my stocknet account 5-6 times or from 2500 to 80-160k. last week I bought the MFFX 250k 2-step unlimited challenge for $770 and I think it was a relatively good deal.

I don't use any challenges which lead to trailing DD. Stocknet has absolute 8% DD and no daily DD. I use around 3% equity SL so I'm quite hopeful that my scaling will go ok and I might be able to reach the max 1.2M at some point in the long run. I spend only small sums on the instant scaling accounts and if I want to increase my portfolio I would use something like MFFX until FTMO and some others will be forced to provide better terms for their challenges.
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