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  • #40,861
  • Aug 18, 2024 5:20am Aug 18, 2024 5:20am
Quoting Takisd
If retail prop can eliminate the gamification .
Can you elaborate on that ?
  • #40,862
  • Aug 18, 2024 6:47am Aug 18, 2024 6:47am
Quoting 21vs7
I know we already talked about this but: FTMO generated a turnover of almost CZK 5 billion (over $213 million) in 2023. The figure jumped 20 percent from the previous year’s CZK 4 billion (about $170 million) in turnover. The EBITDA of the company also reached nearly $100 million. Furthermore, the number of open trading accounts with the Czech company reached more than 2.3 million in 2024, which is 33 percent higher year-over-year. Regarding payouts to prop traders, the company highlighted that it paid 80 percent more money to its traders in the...
Now about the simulated zero-sum trading business with pool money. I think the metrics more important than EBITDA or revenue are net income or another one, unappropriated retained earnings. Are there any data on this? It might be a lucrative business field.
fooled by randomness in art
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  • #40,863
  • Aug 18, 2024 6:54am Aug 18, 2024 6:54am
Quoting RoelsMajor
{quote} I don't think that's a fitting example either. In poker, luck is the same for every player regardless of their skills, a little bit different if u have so much capital. In trading, you need to have both and much much more variances. But I think we'll leave it at that. In general, we already have a bit of knowledge about how prop firms work. Thanks.
Yep, no point to go further in discussion.
In props I tend to keep it simple and not overthink. I insert X coins and I get back Y coins. If Y >X and compensate my time that's all that matters to me. So far, so good. In the future we will see.
  • #40,864
  • Aug 18, 2024 7:12am Aug 18, 2024 7:12am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Yep, no point to go further in discussion. In props I tend to keep it simple and not overthink. I insert X coins and I get back Y coins. If Y >X and compensate my time that's all that matters to me. So far, so good. In the future we will see.
thats good approach. many forget about this invested time part.
  • #40,865
  • Aug 18, 2024 7:53am Aug 18, 2024 7:53am
Quoting RoelsMajor
{quote} Now about the simulated zero-sum trading business with pool money. I think the metrics more important than EBITDA or revenue are net income or another one, unappropriated retained earnings. Are there any data on this? It might be a lucrative business field.
category in the balance sheet: Slipp them all - retained earnings.
  • #40,866
  • Edited 8:17am Aug 18, 2024 8:06am | Edited 8:17am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Yep, no point to go further in discussion. In props I tend to keep it simple and not overthink. I insert X coins and I get back Y coins. If Y >X and compensate my time that's all that matters to me. So far, so good. In the future we will see.
What are your thoughts on 3 phase in your context Capa?
  • #40,867
  • Aug 18, 2024 8:54am Aug 18, 2024 8:54am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} I just explained how the internet prop system works. It's pretty simple. Props is like a machine where you drop coins and if you get positive results you receive coins. Either you accept it or go and drop your coins elsewhere. Real trading statistics are not applied to props because this is not real trading and odds are different due to the nature of their model. In other words, in props you don't even need to beat the market. You just need to beat the guys who are playing in the same machine (prop) than you because they are the ones that...
Also in props even a break even trader or loosing trader can make money if traded with proper planning if one has enough bankroll. You just need 2-3 weeks of winning streak per year that will cover 1-2 years of eval fees if traded aggressively.
  • #40,868
  • Aug 18, 2024 9:01am Aug 18, 2024 9:01am
Quoting Takisd
If retail prop can eliminate the gamification of the prop there is no reason to a-book anyone because statistically it will be profitable.
-That may be difficult. Since you have funding involved that exceeds the buy-in, people will always find ways to exploit and abuse it.

Perhaps one way to ensure success would be to structure it like a lottery with profit caps. The firm could allocate a percentage of the fees to put into a pool (say 50% to 80%), then traders would try to secure some of that, with each account having a profit cap.

I'm not sure if it would work, since there are certain things that you would have to do to make it feasible, but doing it this way could offer longevity and eliminate a lot of the conflicts of interests that we currently see.

It's essentially gambling without a license, but so is what we currently have. The only difference is that the house would be setting limits on how much it could lose so that it could guarantee that the bills were always paid.
  • #40,869
  • Aug 18, 2024 9:12am Aug 18, 2024 9:12am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-That may be difficult. Since you have funding involved that exceeds the buy-in, people will always find ways to exploit and abuse it. Perhaps one way to ensure success would be to structure it like a lottery with profit caps. The firm could allocate a percentage of the fees to put into a pool (say 50% to 80%), then traders would try to secure some of that, with each account having a profit cap. I'm not sure if it would work, since there are certain things that you would have to do to make it feasible, but doing it this way could offer longevity...
Well that's what prop firm do....If you make enough profit (for some firms like TakeProfitTrader 5K per day or Top step 10K per account) they will force you to be on live account. As long as they pay there will be always inflow and loosing trader. Unless regulators pimp in it will always be profitable business.....
  • #40,870
  • Aug 18, 2024 9:21am Aug 18, 2024 9:21am
Quoting sampat
Well that's what prop firm do....If you make enough profit (for some firms like TakeProfitTrader 5K per day or Top step 10K per account) they will force you to be on live account.
-Some have profit caps, but none fully-limit their risk exposure as far as I am aware.
  • #40,871
  • Edited 7:48pm Aug 18, 2024 9:47am | Edited 7:48pm
Quoting Takisd
the a-book b-book conversation is very boring. If props a-book there are no props if props b-book retail customers think the world is against them. If retail prop can eliminate the gamification of the prop there is no reason to a-book anyone because statistically it will be profitable.
Once the race to bottom happened, it's damn near impossible to put the genie back in the bottle. MFFX tried to bring over consistency rules from the futures side where it's fully accepted by that segment of the marketplace and all hell broke loose on them.

So the big question is... can any firm abruptly eliminate the gamification and survive without coordination with other firms to do exactly the same? On the FX side they lost a big % of 1/3 the purchasing market to futures props on top of another even larger % lost by the firms without Meta access to their competitors with meta access. Now you push away the degenerate consistently losing gamblers hoping to purchase a lambo next month and the entire business may not be sustainable during the transition period, putting a heavy strain on reserves.
  • #40,872
  • Aug 18, 2024 10:03am Aug 18, 2024 10:03am
Quoting CableJ
{quote} Once the race to bottom happened, it's damn near impossible to put the genie back in the bottle. MFFX tried to bring over consistency rules from the futures side where it's fully accepted by that segment of the marketplace and all hell broke lose on them. So the big question is... can any firm abruptly eliminate the gamification and survive without coordination with other firms to do exactly the same? On the FX side they lost a big % of 1/3 the purchasing market to futures props on top of another even larger % lost by the firms without Meta...
It all comes to value i think. There are no value propositions in the retail prop market, all are similar/the same with few changes on the surface. No one has a long term plan, scaling is stupid when the orders are b-booked. Lets see if brokers make the difference.
  • #40,873
  • Aug 18, 2024 10:05am Aug 18, 2024 10:05am
Quoting 21vs7
I know we already talked about this but: FTMO generated a turnover of almost CZK 5 billion (over $213 million) in 2023. The figure jumped 20 percent from the previous year’s CZK 4 billion (about $170 million) in turnover. The EBITDA of the company also reached nearly $100 million. Furthermore, the number of open trading accounts with the Czech company reached more than 2.3 million in 2024, which is 33 percent higher year-over-year. Regarding payouts to prop traders, the company highlighted that it paid 80 percent more money to its traders in the...

FTMO & Funded Next greatly benefited by top 5 players MFF, TFF & TFT losing meta/shutting down
  • #40,874
  • Aug 18, 2024 10:14am Aug 18, 2024 10:14am
Quoting FocusWinReal
{quote} What are your thoughts on 3 phase in your context Capa?
Never did any 3 phase challenges, too much work for me. I spend too much time to pass the challenges.
  • #40,875
  • Aug 18, 2024 10:17am Aug 18, 2024 10:17am
Quoting sampat
{quote} Also in props even a break even trader or loosing trader can make money if traded with proper planning if one has enough bankroll. You just need 2-3 weeks of winning streak per year that will cover 1-2 years of eval fees if traded aggressively.
Exactly. Even an negative hedged system can make money in props (that's why I'm very skeptical about the recent changes - I don't see how they will change this, they will just reduce the edge of the trader over the prop).

The only thing I really think that changes this significantly is the trailing DD.
  • #40,876
  • Aug 18, 2024 10:19am Aug 18, 2024 10:19am
Quoting CableJ
{quote} FTMO & Funded Next greatly benefited by top 5 players MFF, TFF & TFT losing meta/shutting down
Both of them are significantly smaller than they were 1 year ago. The survived boom bust cycle. Fundednext by banning people aggressively with IP bans and FTMO with pay and ban NDA's.
  • #40,877
  • Aug 18, 2024 10:22am Aug 18, 2024 10:22am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Some have profit caps, but none fully-limit their risk exposure as far as I am aware.
Moving people to a real account limits their risk from that moment onwards. It's like a SL for the firm, just like MFF.

The maximum risk from then is just the trailing stop. Doesn't matter if the trader achieves 1M in profit, if that happens that will be real profits in a real account and no problem to pay it.

The dilema of this industry is when to SL a trader. If they SL too early they will bleed a lot of money.
  • #40,878
  • Edited 10:48am Aug 18, 2024 10:32am | Edited 10:48am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} It all comes to value i think. There are no value propositions in the retail prop market, all are similar/the same with few changes on the surface. No one has a long term plan, scaling is stupid when the orders are b-booked. Lets see if brokers make the difference.
There may be an opportunity for a market reset. The more sophisticated big brokers getting involved could bring stability & perceived legitimacy to the business. if more of the existing players are forced out of the market due to unsustainability & are replaced by the brokers with more sustainable business models + skin in the game with their reputations on the line... there might be a sliver of hope for the FX prop space... at least for traders outside the US lol
  • #40,879
  • Edited 7:54pm Aug 18, 2024 10:46am | Edited 7:54pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} Both of them are significantly smaller than they were 1 year ago. The survived boom bust cycle. Fundednext by banning people aggressively with IP bans and FTMO with pay and ban NDA's.
The MFF's takedown was the major event that halted overall market growth, but it did lead to redistribution of their market share to the other big players somewhat papering over underlying growth issues until Meta dropped the hammer later.

I do wonder if we would still be in the exact same place today even if the CFTC didn't take out MFF. Deel is probably still dealing with props but Meta still would have been found liable in the trader case leading to them rug pulling the props & offshore brokers anyway.
  • #40,880
  • Aug 18, 2024 11:01am Aug 18, 2024 11:01am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Moving people to a real account limits their risk from that moment onwards. It's like a SL for the firm, just like MFF. The maximum risk from then is just the trailing stop. Doesn't matter if the trader achieves 1M in profit, if that happens that will be real profits in a real account and no problem to pay it. The dilema of this industry is when to SL a trader. If they SL too early they will bleed a lot of money.
MFF's A book was still a net loser, however net -30K to -150K per month on their best traders was probably still an overall win for them vs what those same traders could potentially do in an unrealistic sim environment.
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