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  • #24,261
  • Oct 17, 2023 1:45pm Oct 17, 2023 1:45pm
Quoting DeltaCapital
{quote} Where i live, personal capital gains on forex is 19,6%, for contractor like propfirms is like till 1000 eur dont pay tax only social security but has this gets high more tax will apply but then is advisable to create a company if make to much money, and for company is 8,75% first 50k euro taxable profit for companies, how is it in your country Trandy1 are taxes high there?
Here it is in exact numbers. 19% sales tax first as I am independent contractor on any prop firm. On top of the rest of 81% profits it is taxed depending on the income level. It can be as high as 45%. So in the end I could pay up to 55.44% taxes on prop firms. On 62k gains it is already a tax rate of 42%. So here I pay 53.02% taxes.
  • #24,262
  • Edited 2:08pm Oct 17, 2023 1:57pm | Edited 2:08pm
Quoting DeltaCapital
{quote} Where i live, personal capital gains on forex is 19,6%, for contractor like propfirms is like till 1000 eur dont pay tax only social security but has this gets high more tax will apply but then is advisable to create a company if make to much money, and for company is 8,75% first 50k euro taxable profit for companies, how is it in your country Trandy1 are taxes high there?
You need to deduct sales tax of 23% first if you are self employed as you do when trading on a prop firm. On top of that you pay taxes as individual or company. Of course if you only make 20k per year it is not much. But if you do 100k or 200k per year as serious income from prop firms then it looks different. It is better than in traditional high tax countries but the advantage is not as huge as you have described it. Corporate taxes are up to 31.5% I have seen here. So all in all I think you could pay up to 47.5% taxes even you have a company trading for a prop firm. AND most prop firms do not let you allow to participate as real company, only as individual where you are independent contractor. And then you pay up to 48% personal income taxes even in Portugal.
https://de.statista.com/statistik/da...lter-laendern/
https://www.expatica.com/pt/finance/...rtugal-105742/
https://investomatica.com/income-tax...lator/portugal

Here are the prop firms listed below the link which SHOULD allow as business entity sign-up on their challenges:
https://forexpropreviews.com/proprie...ntity-sign-up/
You see you can do at FTMO but NOT at ACG or 5ers. So very limited options to save some taxes even for your country too.

So with ACG, 5ers, E8Funding, Audacity, Blue Guardian, MyFundedFX, SmartPropTrader and TheFundedTrader to name a few props you would pay insane taxes as individual as you CANNOT sign up as business entity on their challenges. Too bad.
  • #24,263
  • Oct 17, 2023 2:09pm Oct 17, 2023 2:09pm
Can anyone advise me how to withdraw from 5ers using Wise. I have never used Wise before. Do in need to have Wise account?
  • #24,264
  • Oct 17, 2023 2:15pm Oct 17, 2023 2:15pm
Quoting sheva89
Can anyone advise me how to withdraw from 5ers using Wise. I have never used Wise before. Do in need to have Wise account?
Wise does not work. This is since this year 2023. Already said here many times. You need to have a bank wire from 5ers as Deel also does not work anymore.
  • #24,265
  • Oct 17, 2023 2:18pm Oct 17, 2023 2:18pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} You need to deduct sales tax of 23% first if you are self employed as you do when trading on a prop firm. On top of that you pay taxes as individual or company. Of course if you only make 20k per year it is not much. But if you do 100k or 200k per year as serious income from prop firms then it looks different. It is better than in traditional high tax countries but the advantage is not as huge as you have described it. Corporate taxes are up to 31.5% I have seen here. So all in all I think you could pay up to 47.5% taxes even you have a...
Yeah its too bad, the part i live in portugal has -30% of taxes than the mainland, mainland like i would pay for example 10k in taxes, here where i live is 7k, but yeah portugal mainland taxes are high as in germany
  • #24,266
  • Oct 17, 2023 2:32pm Oct 17, 2023 2:32pm
Quoting navk
{quote} If Prop firm Industry is messed up, people will ultimately goto forex brokers to open a personal account to trade. In the current situation, very few good prop firms with reasonable terms and conditions available. Bespoke , funded next . FXIFY all crap now. Only FTMO, and 5ers seem good. FTMO is expensive

cti
5ers
lux
surge
ftuk

this are the only prop firm i trust...

they offer real live account
MY OPINION NOT FINANCIAL ADVISE
  • #24,267
  • Oct 17, 2023 2:39pm Oct 17, 2023 2:39pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Wise does not work. This is since this year 2023. Already said here many times. You need to have a bank wire from 5ers as Deel also does not work anymore.

I recieved through wise this week from 5ers. Pretty quick as well
  • #24,268
  • Oct 17, 2023 2:41pm Oct 17, 2023 2:41pm
Quoting rizla101
{quote} I recieved through wise this week from 5ers. Pretty quick as well
Lucky, it may be/was a smaller amount?. As I know they make a lot of trouble even on 4-digits for every transaction as new KYC procedure needed etc. and much more.
  • #24,269
  • Edited 3:14pm Oct 17, 2023 2:50pm | Edited 3:14pm
Just seen there is a flat tax on personal trading account gains in Spain of 19% to 23% and in Italy 12.5% tax on Forex trading gains with personal account. So the difference to self employed tax as individual is even higher here in those countries as in comparison most other EU countries the capital gains taxes on short term trading is around 25%. So it makes more sense now to just trade your own personal account here. Just do not buy NEW challenges anymore on any prop.


Can anybody like @Casablanca can confirm that short term trading on Forex or Futures trading in Italy is taxed at a flat 12.5% only ??
It is reduced from 26% the years earlier than 2023 or 2022 in Italy ?

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/e...n-europe-2022/

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  • #24,270
  • Oct 17, 2023 2:55pm Oct 17, 2023 2:55pm
Quoting sheva89
Can anyone advise me how to withdraw from 5ers using Wise. I have never used Wise before. Do in need to have Wise account?
Yes you need an account. You then need to create a USD account within wise to recieve $. This required me to send wise $£20(cant remember) to verify the account. You then just give 5ers your wise registered email address when requesting payout.
  • #24,271
  • Oct 17, 2023 3:07pm Oct 17, 2023 3:07pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Here it is in exact numbers. 19% sales tax first as I am independent contractor on any prop firm. On top of the rest of 81% profits it is taxed depending on the income level. It can be as high as 45%. So in the end I could pay up to 55.44% taxes on prop firms. On 62k gains it is already a tax rate of 42%. So here I pay 53.02% taxes.
You don't need to pay sales tax unless you are being charged for sales tax. You should also be able to claim the income as capital gain.
  • #24,272
  • Oct 17, 2023 3:12pm Oct 17, 2023 3:12pm
Quoting donfriday
{quote} cti 5ers lux surge ftuk this are the only prop firm i trust... they offer real live account
Do you have surge funded account? some months ago the owners got caught by SEC in a ponzi scheme
  • #24,273
  • Oct 17, 2023 3:22pm Oct 17, 2023 3:22pm
Quoting DeltaCapital
{quote} Do you have surge funded account? some months ago the owners got caught by SEC in a ponzi scheme
lol....yes, sure did. Yet, they are still stealing from folks with a horrible offer and MFF, the best by far, is shut down. The irony.
  • #24,274
  • Oct 17, 2023 3:29pm Oct 17, 2023 3:29pm
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} You don't need to pay sales tax unless you are being charged for sales tax. You should also be able to claim the income as capital gain.
You cannot classify as capital gains on trading at a prop firm as you are independent contractor and thus it is self employed income, meaning there is sales tax to be paid when you make declaration of your yearly tax income.
  • #24,275
  • Oct 17, 2023 3:39pm Oct 17, 2023 3:39pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} You cannot classify as capital gains on trading at a prop firm as you are independent contractor and thus it is self employed income, meaning there is sales tax to be paid when you make declaration of your yearly tax income.
That's not sales tax, it would be income tax. Here in the US (and I assume maybe some other countries), capital gains tax on a personal account would be a lower % than income taxes as an independent contractor with prop firms. However, if you run your trading as a legitimate business, you can declare the income on a Schedule C [profit / loss from business] and thus deduct allowable expenses to lower the taxable income. Sometimes you can get prop firm income down to capital gains % levels, or at least closer to it, depending on your expenses and documentation (home office, internet use, cost of dedicated servers or VPS, etc., etc.). Get advice from a professional accountant though, which is not me. I only fix their computers... LOL
  • #24,276
  • Oct 17, 2023 3:42pm Oct 17, 2023 3:42pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} lol....yes, sure did. Yet, they are still stealing from folks with a horrible offer and MFF, the best by far, is shut down. The irony.
This is what i dont understand how the SEC let them running the business after got caught in ponzi
  • #24,277
  • Oct 17, 2023 3:51pm Oct 17, 2023 3:51pm
Quoting AaronPriest
{quote} That's not sales tax, it would be income tax. Here in the US (and I assume maybe some other countries), capital gains tax on a personal account would be a lower % than income taxes as an independent contractor with prop firms. However, if you run your trading as a legitimate business, you can declare the income on a Schedule C [profit / loss from business] and thus deduct allowable expenses to lower the taxable income. Sometimes you can get prop firm income down to capital gains % levels, or at least closer to it, depending on your expenses...
You cannot compare, the US tax system is TOTALLY different. I cannot say anything about US taxation on prop firms.
  • #24,278
  • Oct 17, 2023 4:12pm Oct 17, 2023 4:12pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} You cannot classify as capital gains on trading at a prop firm as you are independent contractor and thus it is self employed income, meaning there is sales tax to be paid when you make declaration of your yearly tax income.
Financial services are usually exempt from sales tax.
The income is based on trading capital and profits generated so I would definitively try to claim it as capital gain.
The keyword word here is "revenue share".
  • #24,279
  • Oct 17, 2023 4:18pm Oct 17, 2023 4:18pm
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} Financial services are usually exempt from sales tax. The income is based on trading capital and profits generated so I would definitively try to claim it as capital gain. The keyword word here is "revenue share".
Not possible, it is self employed income as you are independent contractor of the prop firm. As self employed you pay sales tax. There are no exceptions here in Germany regarding Financial Services.
  • #24,280
  • Oct 17, 2023 4:19pm Oct 17, 2023 4:19pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} You cannot compare, the US tax system is TOTALLY different. I cannot say anything about US taxation on prop firms.
I know, hence why I specified "here in the US" for the rest of my paragraph. But "sales tax" is generally only when purchasing a good or service, not typical of declaring your income, in pretty much any country. I'm no expert on tax law in every country though. Just seems odd it would trigger a sales tax event on prop firm income. I'd expect it to be an income tax of some sort instead.

EDIT: That begs a good question though... if you are an independent contractor, and your client is a prop firm, are you required to charge them a sales tax or VAT tax for your service/invoice and collect it to send to the government? Because prop firms are NOT going to pay that, and yet if you are required by law to collect it, then you can't have them as clients.
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