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  • #19,981
  • Sep 2, 2023 9:57am Sep 2, 2023 9:57am
Quoting sampat
{quote} Nope it will wipe out all prop firms. The problem with regulation is that they will maker prop frim conditions like shit. Compare Futures prop firm you will get idea. How expensive they are with 10 times worst conditions and price. Look what they did for Forex, Binary Options and now props.
We should just magine that the regulators, to "protect" ourselves, say that all online prop firms should demand SIE (US) or series 17 (UK) exams approval.
What would happen ? The field would simply dry out and kill the huge business that exist today (or leave it to offshore pirates)
  • #19,982
  • Sep 2, 2023 9:59am Sep 2, 2023 9:59am
https://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/od...0investors.pdf

Attached File(s)
File Type: pdf behavior of individual investors.pdf   883 KB | 816 downloads


The Behavior of Individual Investors* 22
Contents 1. The Performance of Individual Investors 1535 1.1 The Average Individual 1535 1.1.1 Long-Horizon Results 1540 1.1.2 Short-Horizon Results 1542 1.1.3 Market vs. Limit Orders 1543 1.2 Cross-Sectional Variation in Performance 1544 2. Why do Individual Investors Underperform? 1547 2.1 Asymmetric Information 1547 2.2 Overconfidence 1547 2.3 Sensation Seeking 1549 2.4 Familiarity 1550 3. The Disposition Effect: Selling Winners and Holding Losers 1551 3.1 The Evidence 1551 3.2 Why Do Investors Prefer to Sell Winners? 1557 4. Reinforcement Learning 1559 5. Attention: Chasing the Action 1559 6. Failure to Diversify 1560 7. Are Individual Investors Contrarians? 1564 8. Conclusion 1565 References 1565
  • #19,983
  • Sep 2, 2023 10:01am Sep 2, 2023 10:01am
Quoting solarpower
{quote} FTMO surviving without slipping people, do you really think MFF needed to do this? Slippage problem is totally overrated.
We should look into the combination of:
1. Spread dimension
2. Slippage
3. Execution delay
4. Commissions

The combination of the four is the only way of making a fair comparison.

No point in saying that prop A does not have slippage if, on the other side, they change 7 per lot or have 8 pips spread in EURUSD.
  • #19,984
  • Sep 2, 2023 10:03am Sep 2, 2023 10:03am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Not even a question.....FTMO, not even close. As you stated, it all comes down to who you trust. I traded with offshore "unregulated" brokers for 5 years prior to props. I trusted them 1000 times more than any of the "regulated" brokers under the CFTC. I never experienced any of the tricks the regulated brokers pull off daily. In addition, my spreads and overall trading conditions were far superior. The offshores claimed STP, and even if it wasn't, it sure felt like it. I'd literally watch price come within 0.01 of a stop and not take it...

i never met a usa resident/citizen able to trade with offshore brokers unless youre exaggerating to make a point
short trump and go long the deepstate
  • #19,985
  • Sep 2, 2023 10:04am Sep 2, 2023 10:04am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} We should look into the combination of: 1. Spread dimension 2. Slippage 3. Execution delay 4. Commissions The combination of the four is the only way of making a fair comparison. No point in saying that prop A does not have slippage if, on the other side, they change 7 per lot or have 8 pips spread in EURUSD.
You should know or we all know that too good spreads and unrealistic good trading conditions can also easily ruin any prop. At Funding Talent we had incredible trading conditions and many traders exploited this to their favor and so any payouts could be anymore processed by Jessica. So it always like handling with a knife. Too good ruins the prop, and too bad makes any trader complaining. It ain't easy to find a balance.
  • #19,986
  • Sep 2, 2023 10:04am Sep 2, 2023 10:04am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} We should look into the combination of: 1. Spread dimension 2. Slippage 3. Execution delay 4. Commissions The combination of the four is the only way of making a fair comparison. No point in saying that prop A does not have slippage if, on the other side, they change 7 per lot or have 8 pips spread in EURUSD.

on a given situation which side ull take

a honest (hypothetically) policy which has 10-20% extra trading cost

or a dishonest (hypothetically) policy which has low cost but rips u hiddenly.
  • #19,987
  • Sep 2, 2023 10:04am Sep 2, 2023 10:04am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} You made me reread again sections 79 onwards and I see nothing of that. - Low slippage everyone I think it's a normal thing when simulating real trading conditions - They suspended a guy that was using an arb EA and asked for the code to either ban him or STP him - On the winners they classified some as aggressive (I think it's the ones using big lots or High frequency). More slippage on them (and delayed executions). This also happens in real world in most of the brokers - They identified an account using a bot producing profits. They said...
Most days I run my AMP futures account along with CFD prop accounts. Most of the time there is a "slight" difference between futures feed and CFD. Some days more, some days less. There were times that prices and PA was wildly different, and never in my favor. Makes me wonder if I was also being intentionally slipped.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #19,988
  • Sep 2, 2023 10:05am Sep 2, 2023 10:05am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Now, you are onto it. The regulators are the fraud. They want their piece of the 300 million, they don't care about the losing traders. Of course, every spot broker they regulate out , every prop firm is a chance for that money to go back to the futures exchanges. The CFTC is under the umbrella of the NFA......National Futures Association.
I agree partly, most regulation is to keep the little guy's fingers out of their pie but it is also difficult to ignore the line (paraphrased) " If you win, we win". When actually they were hoping the winners of challenge fail and not receive even first payout and put obstacles in the way to try and make that happen. The truth is "if you win, you are a problem and you are taking that cash from our bottom line".
We all know there was chicanery going on and willing to essentially roll with it while the payouts keep coming but they were money clipping our profits too, like the days of shaving gold coins and knowing that aspect leaves us with some difficult choices as they definitely won't be the only firm operating that way. I think it could actually be a good time to do challenges now in quick succession with those that still have the doors open next week as I think if they hang around they will at least try to be squeaky clean for the foreseeable future or until the court order drops at least. For many traders $500 fee to keep going is somewhere in the region for normal trade stop loss anyway, so it's one bad trade if you don't get the next payout.
  • #19,989
  • Sep 2, 2023 10:09am Sep 2, 2023 10:09am
Quoting inversio
{quote} this is common over net, different places found different shittyhead fan bases praising their favorite firms. other firms slippage, is not ok but favorite firms is ok. double standard behavior
No kidding, the current battered wife syndrome on display with MFF is stomach turning.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #19,990
  • Sep 2, 2023 10:13am Sep 2, 2023 10:13am
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  • #19,991
  • Sep 2, 2023 10:14am Sep 2, 2023 10:14am
Quoting Cryptosurf
{quote} Most days I run my AMP futures account along with CFD prop accounts. Most of the time there is a "slight" difference between futures feed and CFD. Some days more, some days less. There were times that prices and PA was wildly different, and never in my favor. Makes me wonder if I was also being intentionally slipped.
That's a good example. And if you trade 100 lots you'll have much worse conditions that if you tarde just one lot.

I'm not here defending MFF. I just want to make a point of how difficult should be to simulate real conditions, knowing that they have a myriad of very different traders.
From the super conservative guy that doesn't trade more then 1 lot in a 200K account, to the ones that trade full leverage 1:100 hoping to get rich instantly, to the ones martingaling, gridding, cheating with bots or EAs using HFT or delayed quotes, etc.

I don't feel strange that they allocate different profiles and different trading conditions (slippage, execution delays, etc.) to each of them.
  • #19,992
  • Sep 2, 2023 10:17am Sep 2, 2023 10:17am
Quoting FX-DON
{quote} I agree partly, most regulation is to keep the little guy's fingers out of their pie but it is also difficult to ignore the line (paraphrased) " If you win, we win". When actually they were hoping the winners of challenge fail and not receive even first payout and put obstacles in the way to try and make that happen. The truth is "if you win, you are a problem and you are taking that cash from our bottom line". We all know there was chicanery going on and willing to essentially roll with it while the payouts keep coming but they were money...
Promoting a business as "We win when you lose" would be difficult.

"If you win, we win" it's marketing stuff and one of the few things where they can be accused of fraud because it is 100% false.
  • #19,993
  • Sep 2, 2023 10:18am Sep 2, 2023 10:18am
Quoting TrAndy1
Competitors are smelling extra growth because of MFF leavers. Many discounts like this available if you consider any new challenges. Dear Traders, We are writing to you today with regards to the current situation regarding the recent developments in the prop world. Such developments can naturally raise questions and concerns, and we want to take this opportunity to reassure you about our commitment to your success and the strength of Alpha Capital Group. At Alpha Capital Group, we understand that trust is the cornerstone of our relationship with...
This is a war of desperate props knowing that they need the stream of revenue to go on operating.
  • #19,994
  • Sep 2, 2023 10:24am Sep 2, 2023 10:24am
Quoting pipmaster77
Exactly. The only thing MFF was doing was preventing the cheaters from scamming hundreds of thousands of dollars by cheating on conditions. My view is they were protecting themselves, which, in turn, was protecting anyone getting paid by them. Once again, if you see it any other way, I am sorry you failed their challenge(s) and I am sorry you are not a profitable trader, however, that is not due to anything MFF did to you.
-Based on what I am seeing, this does not appear to be the case. According to the CFTC document, additional spreads were applied to STP accounts to artificially widen them beyond what traders were already receiving from 3rd-party dealer.

For anyone that is reading this, the few traders that were were still profitable despite Traders Global attempts to handicap them with software that imposed artificial delays and slippage, were put on STP accounts (their version of A-book), where their orders were rerouted to an off-exchange leveraged forex and commodities dealer outside of the US.

Why apply additional slippage on those accounts? --It allows TG to give less money to a winning customer (i.e. allows them to pocket the difference, basically stealing some of the trader's profits) and, for a losing customer, it allows them to terminate the account before the losses reach the draw-down limit. (Though it will appear to the customer that he or she exceeded the draw-down limit).

I have always seen these props as a tool, not as a necessity. I am okay, regardless of what happens with them. I am not a failed trader. I can pass challenges easily. But this kind of activity, if true, upsets me. As traders, we already have enough working against us, and if they were really doing this kind of thing, then we should not be defending them in my opinion.
  • #19,995
  • Sep 2, 2023 10:26am Sep 2, 2023 10:26am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} This is a war of desperate props knowing that they need the stream of revenue to go on operating.
so are you implying they are a ponzi scheme?
if not they can use their 15% of the profitsplit they earn from their funded traders to pay for operation...
Muni loves you all!
  • #19,996
  • Sep 2, 2023 10:28am Sep 2, 2023 10:28am
Quoting Zebi
{quote} i never met a usa resident/citizen able to trade with offshore brokers unless youre exaggerating to make a point
Tradersway, FX Choice, EagleFX, LQDFX, Coinexx.....several others, those are the 5 I used........way better conditions than the bullshit regulated by the CFTC, never an issue, always paid.
Beofre you start the debate, as it already sounds like you are a fan of regulation, it is NOT ILLEGAL to trade with an unregulated broker as long as you pay your taxes on the income.
  • #19,997
  • Sep 2, 2023 10:31am Sep 2, 2023 10:31am
There is actually possible to buy fractions of shares. IB is offering that. I guess there is no real market and also everytime a counterparty here. Just do not forget, there are more counterparties working in trading, otherwise it would not work and there would not be such liquidity available at prices like it is. And no one is complaining here. That is why B-Booking in FX is also not bad but even also required. It is needed to do so, that why it cannot be complained really. There are more examples.
  • #19,998
  • Sep 2, 2023 10:34am Sep 2, 2023 10:34am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} That's a good example. And if you trade 100 lots you'll have much worse conditions that if you tarde just one lot. I'm not here defending MFF. I just want to make a point of how difficult should be to simulate real conditions, knowing that they have a myriad of very different traders. From the super conservative guy that doesn't trade more then 1 lot in a 200K account, to the ones that trade full leverage 1:100 hoping to get rich instantly, to the ones martingaling, gridding, cheating with bots or EAs using HFT or delayed quotes, etc. I...
EVERY broker does the same. I am not defending them either, but as you stated, "the most honest of the crooks".
  • #19,999
  • Sep 2, 2023 10:40am Sep 2, 2023 10:40am
More from the CFTC document, for anyone that hasn't read through it yet:

95. On May 12, 2022, Traders Global Employee A complained about a “suspicious” customer with “0 losses.” The Advisor explained that the customer’s trading was “valid,” and that “after taking a review of some of their other trades it looks more like they’re timing the market very well . . . .” “[O]k,” replied Traders Global Employee A, “i will get their scaled account (it will be 100k) and we can stp it or start on aggressive and go from there but i dont know if that will stop them from being profitable[.]”
  • #20,000
  • Sep 2, 2023 10:43am Sep 2, 2023 10:43am
Quoting TrAndy1
Facts. https://www.compareforexbrokers.com/...ng/statistics/ Although 29% of retail investors achieve capital gains, 99% of fx traders fail to make profits for more than 4 continuous quarters. That is the real world fact which needs to be considered from CFTC in their claim, because it seems they are not doing this. They say it is because of the conditions on MFF that so many people fail and the profitable traders are so low in the number. That is not the case!
The real reason for this thing is that Wall Street doesn't want people to spend and lose money in forex instead of investing on stocks. A prop running it's own servers or using a third party WL solution is insignificant as you are not allowed to offer or market forex services in USA without license and obtaining one is almost impossible. That's how they got rid of the forex business in USA and this is just connected to that.
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