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  • #19,841
  • Sep 2, 2023 4:04am Sep 2, 2023 4:04am
Quoting rizla101
{quote} Anyone get paid yesterday?? probably they have already run away. I was expecting a few payouts. We'll have to see what the situation is after the long weekend. Not very hopeful though.
I got a payout+refund from FXIFY in a second account I got yesterday (fortunately they have the 24 hours first payout rule so I'm safe now).
  • #19,842
  • Sep 2, 2023 4:06am Sep 2, 2023 4:06am
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} Forex itself is a scam, gambling or ponzi as 90% of traders lose their funds. In gambling your odds are probable higher in many cases. This is something that the bankers created in order to rip off people.
Scam is everywhere in this industry. Just take a look at futures and you'll see relentless manipulation by large financial institutions - especially during high-impact news.
  • #19,843
  • Edited 4:19am Sep 2, 2023 4:09am | Edited 4:19am
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} Forex itself is a scam, gambling or ponzi as 90% of traders lose their funds. In gambling your odds are probable higher in many cases. This is something that the bankers created in order to rip off people.
To me Ponzi is to promise some reward that you cannnot deliver. In other words, a business not able to be sustained long term. You pay old investors with new subscription until it blows up.

Gambling is paying the winners with the money from the losers and keeping some % (like roulette, slot machines, etc.). This is not a ponzi. This is a business that is sustainable long term, without busting (casinos, for example).

I think MFF was a gambling business, not a ponzi one.
  • #19,844
  • Sep 2, 2023 4:10am Sep 2, 2023 4:10am
Inserted Video
  • #19,845
  • Sep 2, 2023 4:21am Sep 2, 2023 4:21am
so far what i get is what mff did just a scam and ponzi, their funded trader never trade on live feed ( this is the risk of having own feed, and also easy to manipulate trading environment which they did enormous time, still some ppl like this idea) , where using 3rd party broker add an extra layer of protection .

now in this situation-- if a firm use legitimate broker for live trading then what would be the outcome, r they chase down like mff or not?

to me challenge funding is different model of pamm, in pamm trader has to trade with their own fund and build a track record, then investor invest. here on challenge funding investor set the trading idea if trader meets that than they will get the fund. yes profit splitting is insane here . but if that set to reasonable portion like 30-50 % to the trader that would be logical business model to me.
  • #19,846
  • Sep 2, 2023 4:29am Sep 2, 2023 4:29am
Quoting inversio
so far what i get is what mff did just a scam and ponzi, their funded trader never trade on live feed ( this is the risk of having own feed, and also easy to manipulate trading environment which they did enormous time, still some ppl like this idea) , where using 3rd party broker add an extra layer of protection . now in this situation-- if a firm use legitimate broker for live trading then what would be the outcome, r they chase down like mff or not? to me challenge funding is different model of pamm, in pamm trader has to trade with their own...
I don't agree with you about the own server being an indication.

We saw plenty of examples of 8crap stuff.

TFT played with some parameters and caused an enormous amount of accounts to be hit with huge (fake) slippage and many being violated. They spent a whole week working to reinstate accounts after so many claims in social media.

In Funded Next (another 8 crap) I experienced myself a lot of slippage. I even tested with 0.01 EURUSD lots and ALWAYS got 0.2/0.3 slippage in funded account (not in demo). It was clearly a parametrized thing.

It's clear that 8crap lets props play with several stuff.

So, more important than having or not their own server, the most important is how "honest" is the company, knowing that all of them work in the same way.

To me MFF was a hundred times more honest, even with their own server, than Bespoke or Funded Next using 8crap.
  • #19,847
  • Sep 2, 2023 4:32am Sep 2, 2023 4:32am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} I got a payout+refund from FXIFY in a second account I got yesterday (fortunately they have the 24 hours first payout rule so I'm safe now).
That's good for you then. My US based props I fear for, not sure I'll get another penny from them. Hopefully I'm wrong, I know some have from the outset attempted to separate/ structure parts of their business into unregulated/tax haven nations, and have been pretty explicit that funds and trading activities are all virtual or simulated.


UK/EU props, maybe we'll get a little longer before they receive their letters.
  • #19,848
  • Sep 2, 2023 4:33am Sep 2, 2023 4:33am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Humm... still not convinced. This business could be like slot machines that returns 95% of what is dropped there or the roulette that returns 97.3%. None are ponzis, they just use probabilities. I understand your point. Roulette has fixed odds while in props is more estimated odds of challenges passed and avgs funded payouts (which are manipulated by kicking the guys that are doing arb, having more slippage on the successful ones, charging more or less commissions, etc.). But anyway, still have trouble in considering this a ponzi.
A Ponzi, if not interrupted by law enforcement, could go on indefinitely provided the operator can keep enough funds on hand to finance the withdrawals. I am not totally sure how Madoff's method was but if assuming maybe at one point someone like him was up 60% and all going good. Then things went against him. He mismanaged by holding too long until it was -60%, then he got caught. Meanwhile while under heavy dd, he had to keep a straight face and paid from deposits. So, that is a Ponzi suddenly because of mismanagement of dd and funds on hand. No one was complaining when he was up 60%.

Now in prop case, they have a similar issue cause they have business costs plus they have to pay off traders with pay outs and manage the entry fees and policing etc. The only thing is, they don't have the dd problem to the extent that a Madoff style guy would have. The cash on hand most of the time far outweighs the outgoing funds for the payouts and every month, the excess goes into the pockets of the operator. The prop ultimately becomes a cash flow management operation.

That is why it doesn't look like a Ponzi. It still is a Ponzi but a modified and a new successful construct with social acceptability. It has so much potential because of its enormous survival capabilities that it would need to be somewhat harnessed....as in tamed. Wouldn't you if you ran the country?
  • #19,849
  • Sep 2, 2023 4:38am Sep 2, 2023 4:38am
Casino/contest discussion:

Inserted Video
  • #19,850
  • Sep 2, 2023 4:41am Sep 2, 2023 4:41am
Quoting Erebus
It's a hot topic for sure https://youtu.be/aqCU_ugBqn4?si=20lpvFjfhyB5y8Hx
Be a few worried firms scuttling into the shadows as the spotlight is turned on them. Could be the latest "Fad" among regulators and the media; "prop firms, the good , the bad, and the downright naughty."
every Saint has a past. Every Sinner has a Future
  • #19,851
  • Sep 2, 2023 4:44am Sep 2, 2023 4:44am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} I don't agree with you about the own server being an indication. We saw plenty of examples of 8crap stuff. TFT played with some parameters and caused an enormous amount of accounts to be hit with huge (fake) slippage and many being violated. They spent a whole week working to reinstate accounts after so many claims in social media. In Funded Next (another 8 crap) I experienced myself a lot of slippage. I even tested with 0.01 EURUSD lots and ALWAYS got 0.2/0.3 slippage in funded account (not in demo). It was clearly a parametrized thing....
No surprise MFF sank into the mud. Be interesting to see reactions from other props outside Canada.
every Saint has a past. Every Sinner has a Future
  • #19,852
  • Edited 5:47am Sep 2, 2023 4:47am | Edited 5:47am
For anyone interested MFF

https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8771-23
  • #19,853
  • Sep 2, 2023 4:50am Sep 2, 2023 4:50am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} I don't agree with you about the own server being an indication. We saw plenty of examples of 8crap stuff. TFT played with some parameters and caused an enormous amount of accounts to be hit with huge (fake) slippage and many being violated. They spent a whole week working to reinstate accounts after so many claims in social media. In Funded Next (another 8 crap) I experienced myself a lot of slippage. I even tested with 0.01 EURUSD lots and ALWAYS got 0.2/0.3 slippage in funded account (not in demo). It was clearly a parametrized thing....

here at least ppl can identify the cheater. if u have own feed u cant check. like 8c , if their normal trading ( without prop) is ok, but with prop firm is not, its obvious that main culprit is prop( also 8c who is helping ) but prop forms intention clearly identified.

but when this happen in own feed u cant chek.

with mff once I had a huge overnight speeds, which just required to blew my acc. i posted here about that. and also checked with other broker, trader no one had similar or closed to that spread on that night.

after having that I joined their discord, also saw another case, which is more weird, a trader post 2 screenshots with ACC no. one of his another one to his frnd, both took same pair , same direction, but time , price is different. his one blew due huge speeds gapp and his lot was way big than his frnd, but his fronds ACC didn't faced that same spread gapp at all.

what would u say?

and here what looks like mff didn't offer live feed t all all r demo. so the profit makes by live traders r nothing but paid from where?

if they use a legitimate broker than live trade performed on real feed.


as a trader I don't mind 1-2 pips high spread or 1-2 pips slippage , requotes is main issue. i hate that.
  • #19,854
  • Sep 2, 2023 4:52am Sep 2, 2023 4:52am
These are probably gone and next target. Better to avoid the prop firms below listed, at least until the dust settles.

In this article, we are going to go through which proprietary trading firms listed on our website are located in the USA.

You can see where prop firms are located in the USA in the spreadsheet below:

Proprietary Trading FirmProp Trading Firms Located In The USA

E8 FundingTexas (USA) and the Czech Republic
FundedNextUAE, USA, UK, and Bangladesh
Leveled Up SocietyMiami (USA)
Ment FundingTexas (USA)
My Forex FundsToronto (Canada)
MyFundedFXTexas (USA)
Nations TradingMiami (USA)
Smart Prop TraderTexas (USA)
SurgeTraderFlorida (USA)
The Funded TraderTexas (USA)
TopTier TraderDelaware (USA)
  • #19,855
  • Sep 2, 2023 4:58am Sep 2, 2023 4:58am
Quoting OutThere
{quote} A Ponzi, if not interrupted by law enforcement, could go on indefinitely provided the operator can keep enough funds on hand to finance the withdrawals. I am not totally sure how Madoff's method was but if assuming maybe at one point someone like him was up 60% and all going good. Then things went against him. He mismanaged by holding too long until it was -60%, then he got caught. Meanwhile while under heavy dd, he had to keep a straight face and paid from deposits. So, that is a Ponzi suddenly because of mismanagement of dd and funds on...
I agree. This is all about cash flow management.

Props receive challenge fees upfront much before they have to pay payouts. If the business metrics is based in paying 80K for each 100K collected, they just have to make sure that 20K is enough to cover cost and have a profit for shareholders.

If that is the case (I think it is), then it is not a ponzi. It's a gambling business.
  • #19,856
  • Sep 2, 2023 4:58am Sep 2, 2023 4:58am
Nearly no firm is really offshore located on their head office, when you look on the locations below.

In this article, we are going to go through where proprietary trading firms are located throughout the world.

You can see where prop firms are located throughout the world in the spreadsheet below:

Proprietary Trading FirmProp Trading Firm Location

E8 FundingTexas (USA) and the Czech Republic
Alpha Capital GroupLondon (UK)
AlphachainLondon (UK)
Audacity CapitalLondon (UK)
Bespoke FundingLondon (UK)
Blue GuardianWest Midlands (UK)
BuoyTradeSingapore
City Traders ImperiumLondon (UK)
FidelcrestCyprus and Estonia
Finotive FundingBudapest, Hungary
Forex Capital FundsNetherlands, Europe
FTUKLondon (UK)
FTMOPrague (Czech Republic)
Funded AcademyNew South Wales (Australia)
Funded Trading PlusLondon (UK)
FundedNextUAE, USA, UK, and Bangladesh
FunderProMalta
Funding PipsDubai, United Arab Emirates
Glow NodeLondon (UK)
Goat Funded TraderCanary Islands (Spain)
Leveled Up SocietyMiami (USA)
Lux Trading FirmLondon (UK) and Bratislava
Ment FundingTexas (USA)
MyFlashFundingUSA (Missouri)
My Forex FundsToronto (Canada)
MyFundedFXTexas (USA)
Nations TradingMiami (USA)
OspreyFXSaint Vincent & Grenadines
Smart Prop TraderTexas (USA)
Super FundedAustralia
SurgeTraderFlorida (USA)
The Funded TraderTexas (USA)
The Trading PitLiechtenstein
The5%ersLondon (UK)
TopTier TraderDelaware (USA)
Trading FundsUnited Arab Emirates
True Forex FundsGyőr, Hungary
  • #19,857
  • Sep 2, 2023 5:04am Sep 2, 2023 5:04am
Quoting inversio
{quote} here at least ppl can identify the cheater. if u have own feed u cant check. like 8c , if their normal trading ( without prop) is ok, but with prop firm is not, its obvious that main culprit is prop( also 8c who is helping ) but prop forms intention clearly identified. but when this happen in own feed u cant chek. with mff once I had a huge overnight speeds, which just required to blew my acc. i posted here about that. and also checked with other broker, trader no one had similar or closed to that spread on that night. after having that...
I'm not saying MFF were angels, far from that. I'm just saying that all props work in the same way, having or not their own server (no real money involved, slippage parametrized, fake commissions, execution delays, etc.).

This being said, we just have to analyze through social media, telegram groups, twitter, trust pilot, personal experience shared here, etc. who are the ones more "honest" in this videogame industry.
And if we look at the number of MFF (or FTMO) bad cases that we hear about (compared with the huge number of traders they had) vs the bad cases of other small companies, we have an image of who is more probable to screw us.

The fact that MFF has a case and Funded Next has not a case doesn't make Funded Next more honest that MFF a week ago, before all this.
  • #19,858
  • Sep 2, 2023 5:20am Sep 2, 2023 5:20am
Quoting OutThere
{quote} Is this the source of his smug reaction by that guy? Because he now offers SIM accounts? Mb it was always there. Who looks? If they admit all is sim and no one goes nowhere near a real account, is that enough to absolve them of previous sins? Can someone charge X amount for a sim game and then distribute prizes back to winners? Legal? I'd think it falls under gaming for sure then. I wouldn't mind pretending I am trading FX while in a sim surroundings as long as a 3rd party well known none manipulative demo account is used. {image}...
I think there is a workable model for sure and I would not be surprised for one of the big regulated brokers to step in and have their version before much longer. It's a large market share I'm sure they will only be too keen to explore if the current crop of "prop firms" go to the wall.
The main issue has been that the product didn't do what it said on the tin. There will still be good profit in it for the right party if they choose to do it properly minus the dirty tricks. The win rates for trading aren't going to change any time soon and if the terms are clear and adhered to it will simply be a case of "caveat emptor".
It's a very similar concept to the raffle and most people who buy a ticket know the odds are slim of winning the prize and the only time the raffle organiser has problems is when they cheat and don't enter all the tickets into the hat. So really there are probably workarounds with regulation to get the model to work properly and the only issue will arise when you get GREEDY BASTARD CEO who says they are doing one thing but actually doing another. Having thought about this a bit I think there is a great opportunity that can open up for a business that can pick up the reigns and be open to regular independent and regulatory audits. I despise regulation in many ways especially when it's done under the guise of "protecting us" from ourselves but in this case, how else were we going to find out the guy was a crook? Time will tell but I think this might just be the rocket that this sector needed, it doesn't have to be like the "Wild West". Many people say about if you can trade just trade your own account and whilst that is true what is not to like about not having to expose your own capital to odd market events like Swiss peg removal etc. Regardless of SL in place the account can run down to zero in search of liquidity. I know there are work arounds for that too but some strategies require a large bank/margin and the forfeit of 20% of the profit is a small price to pay for that peace of mind, IF if the "Prop" operation is done right.
  • #19,859
  • Sep 2, 2023 5:24am Sep 2, 2023 5:24am
Quoting OutThere
{quote} A Ponzi, if not interrupted by law enforcement, could go on indefinitely provided the operator can keep enough funds on hand to finance the withdrawals. I am not totally sure how Madoff's method was but if assuming maybe at one point someone like him was up 60% and all going good. Then things went against him. He mismanaged by holding too long until it was -60%, then he got caught. Meanwhile while under heavy dd, he had to keep a straight face and paid from deposits. So, that is a Ponzi suddenly because of mismanagement of dd and funds on...
Madoff never made any real trades with investor funds and paid so called profits to existing investors from their own original investments and from new investor funds. I don't see much difference here with prop firms. Eventually it depends on how the regulators want to define the props. For the business it would probably be better if they are not defined as ponzi schemes. Time will tell.
  • #19,860
  • Sep 2, 2023 5:25am Sep 2, 2023 5:25am
Well, I wouldn't be surprised if the final outcome is that prices go up, we get tighter conditions, and profit splits go down. The industry just becomes less attractive, like it happened to poker post Black Friday on April 15 2011.

This might as well been prop industry Black Friday.
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