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  • #19,821
  • Sep 2, 2023 3:18am Sep 2, 2023 3:18am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote}Finally, I think the big risk is that some props prevent US and CA residents from joining them as a precautious measure to avoid legal case (even if they think they are not under their jurisdiction). Specially the props in Europe, like FTMO, TFF and UK.
That's what I think is happening right now behind the scenes. Let's see what they come out with next week. I would trust those starting to ban US/CA traders much more than those shouting "we are all safe because of blah blah blah..."
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #19,822
  • Sep 2, 2023 3:19am Sep 2, 2023 3:19am
Quoting sampat
Couple of things. i am not sure why people here is saying MyFF is fraud. By this logic Forex.com, Oanda is also fraud. If CFTC is so worried about spread manipulation They have double commissions. How they are fraud? They are paying regularly without any issue. Did CFTC ever investigated during swiss tsunami FOREX.COM earned whooping 50-100 million in a day while their so called client protected by REGULATED CFTC has lost deposits? How B-Booking is wrong. Fraud is only when you dont pay why do I care if somebody makes more money?
It doesn't depend if they pay or not. It's fraud in the sense that they make you think that your are trading real money, paying real commissions, having real slippage, etc. when, in reality, you are simply paying an arcade video game.
  • #19,823
  • Sep 2, 2023 3:22am Sep 2, 2023 3:22am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote}In this topic most of us new that we were playing a video game but most people don't. They (and all props the same) lured people into thinking that were really paying to do "challenge tests" and then would be allocated real money.
Amen

Quoting Vitore
{quote} For me, as a customer (no, I never considered me to be a contractor), this has never been anything else then a betting or video game. All the nonsense they put is their "contracts" (which some even gave up on using lately) is irrelevant when you think about what you actually do, and what they admit they actually do. What you, as a trader, do is just playing a sort of game of trading. With an artificial price feed, artificial trading conditions, unrealistic behavior of what should be your trading terminal. Results of your actions are lost...
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #19,824
  • Sep 2, 2023 3:24am Sep 2, 2023 3:24am
So this was expected to happen. But happened sooner than I thought and didn't expect MFF to go down first tbh. But I guess they want to send a strong signal to the top dog in the scamster pyramid.

Due to this I was thinking maybe futures prop firms are more reliable than forex prop firms then since most of them operate in US soil and for quite awhile too and thus figured they had been accepted by now by the regulatory organs in US.

Did small research maybe I'm late to the game but noticed the founder of Earn2Trade "one of the most popular futures prop firms" got fraud charges against him in 2020 in the binary options industry ongoing process.

Then someone lately also got into issues in prop firm forex industry and so happens almost all prop firms shifted to unlimited time during the same period and slightly after news became public of how that person also got charges against him. Cannot keep up with all names and prop firms at this point whos got charges against them from regulations now. But now they are going full ham it seems.

Unless a prop firm is very old got old players veterans in it as founders. Im 100% sure they will collapse faster than anything we have seen. Not even sure offshore will even help tbh since the world is now more or less globalized. If anything goes through american soil in any way then they can always find some reason to shut down whatever company.

Basically treat this as a normal market too. If theres new signs, odd behaviors compared to normal patterns. Then the market is about to shift or crash. Aka sudden unlimited time panic move by prop firms. The first signal they knew something was up now its all crashing.

Some here think theres some kinda "justice" reasoning in this world to those lowest in the pyramid. I guess you are still sleeping a nice sleep.
  • #19,825
  • Sep 2, 2023 3:26am Sep 2, 2023 3:26am
Quoting bluesteele
Another Data point to keep in mind is the CFTC SEC win 85-90% of their cases. Probabilites backed up by data are what I trade every single day,,, I certainly would be wagering on the CFTC's side despite my emotions that told me Hey MFF seems like a great company.. As for Canada,,,its a tight ass environment for traders...How many FX/CFD brokers dont allow Canadian residents. especially from BC (my location) so many traders gravitate to offshore brokers... Europe can be difficult as well...As for this "prop industry" becoming regulated..I dont see...
The only think I disagree with you here is about this being a ponzi scheme because I'm not 100% convinced (neither I can swear that it is not).

Yes, it could be a (very slow) ponzi scheme but we should also consider that it's a "legitim" business like:
- 100 challenges at 1.000 USD
- 97 challenges lost
- 4 funded accounts with average lifetime payouts of 10.000 USD
This would be 100K revenue and 40K payouts with a healthy profit for operational costs and dividends. Just an example.
  • #19,826
  • Sep 2, 2023 3:27am Sep 2, 2023 3:27am
Quoting Vitore
{quote} That's what I think is happening right now behind the scenes. Let's see what they come out with next week. I would trust those starting to ban US/CA traders much more than those shouting "we are all safe because of blah blah blah..."
And yes, on top of that, the clever ones will also reword and rebrand their business completely so that it is clear you're playing a game rather then do trading. And in a completely simulated environment. And they start preparing for getting their casino licences...
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #19,827
  • Sep 2, 2023 3:31am Sep 2, 2023 3:31am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} The only think I disagree with you here is about this being a ponzi scheme because I'm not 100% convinced (neither I can swear that it is not). Yes, it could be a (very slow) ponzi scheme but we should also consider that it's a "legitim" business like: - 100 challenges at 1.000 USD - 97 challenges lost - 4 funded accounts with average lifetime payouts of 10.000 USD This would be 100K revenue and 40K payouts with a healthy profit for operational costs and dividends. Just an example.
Ponzi to me is simple, whereas this system is much more sophisticated and based on probabilities. Moreover, it is manipulated in a way so that you pay out minimum (slippage, delays, spreads, rules, bans, ...). It is either some Ponzi 2.0 or Statistical Ponzi or whatever else but not the classic one
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #19,828
  • Sep 2, 2023 3:32am Sep 2, 2023 3:32am
Quoting sampat
{quote} What makes you think they cannot do for FTMO and TFF? Do you think MyFF was in US? They will just sue them and block all traders. As long as there is any person from North american soil trading with them they can sue any body. How difficult is for them to block FTMO server? They did same thing with Binary Option. Have u seen any binary option except Nadex alive?
All EU and UK located props should move off shore asap in order to survive. Since props can be defined as ponzi they will not be able to be regulated in EU or UK.
  • #19,829
  • Sep 2, 2023 3:32am Sep 2, 2023 3:32am
Quoting navk
{quote} My plan is different. But i wonder what the regulators will do with 300 millions. All this money is ours. I am curious who is FRAUD here. And i wo der who has stolen our money at the end. Disheartening. Protectors can not be frauds
why don't you leave prop shops and just trade your own money?

i stopped managing other people's money more than 15 years ago because of these problems.
trading is like dancing, don't think and just listen to the music!
  • #19,830
  • Sep 2, 2023 3:32am Sep 2, 2023 3:32am
Quoting OutThere
What is going to fill in all the empty spaces on this thread that used to be full of praises, worships. promotions. admirations and adulations bestowed upon MFF endlessly? That shmuk owner was probably reading them, playing with himself thinking what a load of idiots...I stick it up their wazoos everyday with my own brokerage set up and they think I am the best and most trusted thing...he he heheeeee har har har
All of them operate in the same way. That being said, MFF was one of the best and no comparison with guys like Funded Next and such.

We would be naïve thinking that all the other ones are operating with real money, charging real commissions and having market slippage. And that they are keeping the profits in the company bank account.
The kids of Bespoke and Funded Next, the "serious" Cue Bank, the visionaries Angelo or Matt... ?
  • #19,831
  • Sep 2, 2023 3:37am Sep 2, 2023 3:37am
Quoting KoyaAndy18
is there a possibility that us and ca regulators can fuck with bespoke and other uk based firms??
I would say that it is much more probable to go after US companies than anyone else. So right now I say yes because what is stated in court petitions could be copy/pasted to any other prop. And US ones are a the privileged targets.
  • #19,832
  • Sep 2, 2023 3:38am Sep 2, 2023 3:38am
The prop industry is decapitated.
I wonder why the remaining limbs don't get up and run away now?
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  • #19,833
  • Sep 2, 2023 3:43am Sep 2, 2023 3:43am
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} All EU and UK located props should move off shore asap in order to survive. Since props can be defined as ponzi they will not be able to be regulated in EU or UK.
well do you think it is really a ponzi rather than a casino or video games?
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #19,834
  • Sep 2, 2023 3:46am Sep 2, 2023 3:46am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} All of them operate in the same way. That being said, MFF was one of the best and no comparison with guys like Funded Next and such. We would be naïve thinking that all the other ones are operating with real money, charging real commissions and having market slippage. And that they are keeping the profits in the company bank account. The kids of Bespoke and Funded Next, the "serious" Cue Bank, the visionaries Angelo or Matt... ?
I think it is certainly a good time to hold back on the new challenge purchases.
They are probably already feeling it. That matt guy's writing looked sweaty.
  • #19,835
  • Sep 2, 2023 3:47am Sep 2, 2023 3:47am
Quoting Vitore
{quote} well do you think it is really a ponzi rather than a casino or video games?
CFTC:
Because Traders Global is the counterparty, when a customer’s trading
is successful, any “profits” to which the customer may be entitled come out of
Traders Global’s pocket. Indeed, substantially all of these so-called profits come
from fees that Traders Global collected from other customers, in a manner similar
to a Ponzi scheme. When customers win, Traders Global loses.
  • #19,836
  • Sep 2, 2023 3:49am Sep 2, 2023 3:49am
Quoting OutThere
{quote} Is this the source of his smug reaction by that guy? Because he now offers SIM accounts? Mb it was always there. Who looks? If they admit all is sim and no one goes nowhere near a real account, is that enough to absolve them of previous sins? Can someone charge X amount for a sim game and then distribute prizes back to winners? Legal? I'd think it falls under gaming for sure then. I wouldn't mind pretending I am trading FX while in a sim surroundings as long as a 3rd party well known none manipulative demo account is used. {image}...
It's clear for most of us that we were playing a videogame. We discussed that many times here, even tried to "guess" what the business metrics were like % of challenges passed, % of profit, avrg profit, etc.

And you're right. This was more like a gambling business dressed in a way that seemed real trading. And we understand why. It's much easier to sell a product to wannabe traders than selling it to degenerate gamblers. In the end it's the same thing but people feel better thinking they are trying to be traders instead of successful gamblers.
  • #19,837
  • Sep 2, 2023 3:49am Sep 2, 2023 3:49am
Quoting OutThere
The prop industry is decapitated. I wonder why the remaining limbs don't get up and run away now? {image}
Anyone get paid yesterday?? probably they have already run away. I was expecting a few payouts. We'll have to see what the situation is after the long weekend. Not very hopeful though.
  • #19,838
  • Sep 2, 2023 3:57am Sep 2, 2023 3:57am
Quoting Vitore
{quote} Ponzi to me is simple, whereas this system is much more sophisticated and based on probabilities. Moreover, it is manipulated in a way so that you pay out minimum (slippage, delays, spreads, rules, bans, ...). It is either some Ponzi 2.0 or Statistical Ponzi or whatever else but not the classic one
Humm... still not convinced.

This business could be like slot machines that returns 95% of what is dropped there or the roulette that returns 97.3%. None are ponzis, they just use probabilities.

I understand your point. Roulette has fixed odds while in props is more estimated odds of challenges passed and avgs funded payouts (which are manipulated by kicking the guys that are doing arb, having more slippage on the successful ones, charging more or less commissions, etc.). But anyway, still have trouble in considering this a ponzi.
  • #19,839
  • Sep 2, 2023 3:57am Sep 2, 2023 3:57am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} It's clear for most of us that we were playing a videogame. We discussed that many times here, even tried to "guess" what the business metrics were like % of challenges passed, % of profit, avrg profit, etc. And you're right. This was more like a gambling business dressed in a way that seemed real trading. And we understand why. It's much easier to sell a product to wannabe traders than selling it to degenerate gamblers. In the end it's the same thing but people feel better thinking they are trying to be traders instead of successful gamblers....
Forex itself is a scam, gambling or ponzi as 90% of traders lose their funds. In gambling your odds are probable higher in many cases. This is something that the bankers created in order to rip off people.
  • #19,840
  • Sep 2, 2023 4:02am Sep 2, 2023 4:02am
Quoting OutThere
{quote} I think it is certainly a good time to hold back on the new challenge purchases. They are probably already feeling it. That matt guy's writing looked sweaty.
You have a point mate. And to me this will be the second wave effect.

I hope that everybody now understands that they are playing a videogame and that payouts are coming from the failed challenges.

Now.... what will happen to the companies that will see a shortage of new challenges ? It's easy to say, right ? No money for payouts.

All this said, the million dollar question is:
- Which prop will be able to keep more challenges fees coming than the payouts paid ? Those are the ones safer for the near future. All the others will face trouble.
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