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  • #13,381
  • Jan 7, 2023 7:59am Jan 7, 2023 7:59am
Quoting TraderTero
If your strategy needs a risk of ruin of 100 trades, you should not be trading at all. It's flawed to use the same risk of $1 on a $100 and a $1250 account.
-I think that he was just using it as an example to illustrate his point. But that being said, regardless of the account balance, everyone must determine their own risk-tolerance and allowable risk-per-trade, whether that's 1% or 2% etc.. The disconnect often occurs when newbie traders apply their risk-per-trade based on the overall account size in lieu of the actual draw-down allowance (which is the real account size).

Quoting TraderTero
Also, like I have mentioned several times you should have the same risk setting on the prop as on your own account. The source of funds should not make a difference. Would you trade your own 100k differently than a funded 100k? I would not.
-To each their own, but I think that it may depend on the person and their goals/circumstances. After all, 10k of your own money is a LOT different than 10k of risk-free money. Certainly, you can treat prop funds similarly as you would investor funds, but there is currently no real reason to do that here.

Quoting TraderTero
In any case, I recommend that you take another look at your numbers and compare for example a 100K funded account for which you paid for example $500 to trading the $500 as your own account.
-Are you talking about challenge models here? Because there is no legitimate firm on the planet that will give you 100k of actual draw-down for $500. And if you are referring to the artificial balance of 100k (with actual 5k of draw-down), well, you are just not going to get that with any instant funding model. The chances of flipping an account 10X in order to scale up to those numbers is very unlikely for most traders.

Here is a model that I put together for MFF's instant funding model, that showcases the math a bit better (this does not compare against the challenge model because the results would be laughable):

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: 2021-09-11_18-16-27.png Size: 91 KB

I realize that the instant model that you are promoting is probably better than MFF's model, but no instant funding model can compete against a challenge model. And if you are producing 10% per month without issue, then you should have no problems with satisfying the requirements for that.
  • #13,382
  • Jan 7, 2023 8:09am Jan 7, 2023 8:09am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I think that he was just using it as an example to illustrate his point. But that being said, regardless of the account balance, everyone must determine their own risk-tolerance and allowable risk-per-trade, whether that's 1% or 2% etc.. The disconnect often occurs when newbie traders apply their risk-per-trade based on the overall account size in lieu of the actual draw-down allowance (which is the real account size). {quote}-To each their own, but I think that it may depend on the person and their goals/circumstances. After all, 10k of...
"-Are you talking about challenge models here? Because there is no legitimate firm on the planet that will give you 100k of actual draw-down for $500. And if you are referring to the artificial balance of 100k (with actual 5k of draw-down), well, you are just not going to get that with any instant funding model. The chances of flipping an account 10X in order to scale up to those numbers is very unlikely for most traders."

The $500 was just a sample as it doesn't really maker a difference if you get funded via challenge or other means. FYI I have a 100k instant funded account with 8% max loss calculated from the initial balance and I paid around $1200 for it.
  • #13,383
  • Jan 7, 2023 8:35am Jan 7, 2023 8:35am
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} "-Are you talking about challenge models here? Because there is no legitimate firm on the planet that will give you 100k of actual draw-down for $500. And if you are referring to the artificial balance of 100k (with actual 5k of draw-down), well, you are just not going to get that with any instant funding model. The chances of flipping an account 10X in order to scale up to those numbers is very unlikely for most traders." The $500 was just a sample as it doesn't really maker a difference if you get funded via challenge or other means. FYI...

Where did you get a 100k instant funded account for around $1200?

I looked on your website and a 40k instant funded account is quoted at £2279 !
  • #13,384
  • Jan 7, 2023 8:35am Jan 7, 2023 8:35am
Quoting TraderTero
The $500 was just a sample as it doesn't really maker a difference if you get funded via challenge or other means. FYI I have a 100k instant funded account with 8% max loss calculated from the initial balance and I paid around $1200 for it.
-You are not addressing the points that matter. It is not very productive or helpful to readers if you will do this.

Assuming that your account was not scaled up yet, that equates to roughly 6.66x your initial buy-in. It is a good deal. However, MFF's challenge model offers 25.9x your buy-in and is refundable at first payout, meaning zero-risk trading for you and your investors.

Most instant funding models are not refundable. Of those that are, they usually require you to scale your account to max, which oftentimes equates to flipping an account 10x. This is the same as turning 1k into 1M. Most traders will never be able to do this.

As I say, instant funding models are not the best option in most cases. There are exceptions, though. In your case, for example, if you are not able to trade within the parameters of the challenge model, then that is a valid argument. However, you cannot say that the numbers look better in terms of profitability or cost-value.
  • #13,385
  • Jan 7, 2023 9:17am Jan 7, 2023 9:17am
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} "Here is the issue.....1% of $100 is $1 you have a risk of ruin at 100 trades, 1% of $1,250 is $12.50, you have a risk of ruin of 8 trades. Therefore, if you're strategy needs a risk of ruin of 100 trades, you MUST also trade $1 per trade on the prop, even though the equity says $1,250." If your strategy needs a risk of ruin of 100 trades, you should not be trading at all. It's flawed to use the same risk of $1 on a $100 and a $1250 account. Also, like I have mentioned several times you should have the same risk setting on the prop as on...
Glad you mentioned the risk of ruin, Thank You for proving my point. OK so my strategy has a risk of ruin of 10 trades. $100 personal account allows me to risk $10 (10%) per trade. Risk 10% of the 1,250 on the prop, ($125) you now have a risk of ruin of 0.8 trades.....Do you understand now?
Whatever your risk of ruin is it must be applied to 100% of personal account BUT ONLY 100% of max loss on the prop.
Want to compare to a challenge.....pay $500 for 100K with 10% DD (10K)....they ask for 10% with 10% DD stage and 5% with 10% target stage 2.......pu the $500 in personal, stage 1 flips it to $1,000 and stage 2 makes 50% to $1,500.....so after completing the 2 stages you will have $1,500 in personal or $10K MAX LOSS (not fake equity, actual $10K max loss)
So in summary, instant funding you actually get LESS than the fee you paid, challenge you get 6.6 times MORE than the fee you paid PLUS the fee is refunded so you actually cannot even measure the value. I will not even get into the split % because that must be calculated i as well. It is ON AVERAGE a 1.6 times better split with challenge vs. instant.
Challenge firms also scale 25-30% every 3-4 months if you've earned 10%( which in reality is flipping the account against max loss). Instant requires usually double target vs. max loss, which is 200%, then they double you.....makes sense YOU just doubled YOU. Even better are the ones that say ONLY SCALE IF YOU LEAVE MONEY IN......What????? It's my money, of course I better scale.
Please, please show me an instant firm which gives me 6.6 times my fee as an available loss, with a payout history........I'll buy 3 accounts on the spot
  • #13,386
  • Jan 7, 2023 9:39am Jan 7, 2023 9:39am
Quoting Bizziebee
{quote} Where did you get a 100k instant funded account for around $1200? I looked on your website and a 40k instant funded account is quoted at £2279 !
I got it from Stocknet but it's not been offered any more.
  • #13,387
  • Edited 10:46am Jan 7, 2023 10:17am | Edited 10:46am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Glad you mentioned the risk of ruin, Thank You for proving my point. OK so my strategy has a risk of ruin of 10 trades. $100 personal account allows me to risk $10 (10%) per trade. Risk 10% of the 1,250 on the prop, ($125) you now have a risk of ruin of 0.8 trades.....Do you understand now? Whatever your risk of ruin is it must be applied to 100% of personal account BUT ONLY 100% of max loss on the prop. Want to compare to a challenge.....pay $500 for 100K with 10% DD (10K)....they ask for 10% with 10% DD stage and 5% with 10% target stage...
"Want to compare to a challenge.....pay $500 for 100K with 10% DD (10K)....they ask for 10% with 10% DD stage and 5% with 10% target stage 2.......pu the $500 in personal, stage 1 flips it to $1,000 and stage 2 makes 50% to $1,500.....so after completing the 2 stages you will have $1,500 in personal or $10K MAX LOSS (not fake equity, actual $10K max loss)"

Please explain how your $500 turns to $1500 or grows 300% while your challenge account grows 15%. I can see that you state: "Whatever your risk of ruin is it must be applied to 100% of personal account BUT ONLY 100% of max loss on the prop."
  • #13,388
  • Jan 7, 2023 10:45am Jan 7, 2023 10:45am
Quoting TraderTero
I got it from Stocknet but it's not been offered any more.
-It is no wonder why, I'm sure. In this game, you have to risk money to make money. It is no different with instant funding models. You take on less risk by not having to prove yourself first. The firm also takes on less risk, so much so, that the offer does not even compute in most cases.

Better to end this discussion here. People will make their own choices in life.
  • #13,389
  • Jan 7, 2023 10:46am Jan 7, 2023 10:46am
OFP SCAM

on my 50k acc they mailed that i break the dd of 5% daily on 20th dec. and send me a graph where eqity line and margin line showing. according to that graph i shown them i didnt break daily dd, and still left some room according to daily high and low point. also i gave them manual calcualtion how i servived the dd breach. on that day begining i had few trade from 19th, and those were around -150. so according to that my daily equity dd limit is 2500+150= 2650, but my that days total loss was 2424, means 2424-150 = 2274 on equity, and according to balance i have 2500 quota of loss and all my position closed on 2424. so im safe.

yes, there is a point that if my trade were goes below 2500 than comes back and thean i closed . but that was also not happened, from 2022.12.20 00:32:39 my 1st trade was closed and on 2022.12.20 18:12:56 closed my last trade.
during that period i closed 110 trade, highest lot for currency was 0.05 and lowest 0.01, and for cfd 1 .

and closed those trade on 10 different batch, and i reduced my lot size after closing batches, bcz i was aware of dd and more i make losses i opne trades on small lots. and most important thing is almost 90% of my trade closed on the last point of that hour and 15 minutes candle, means there is no point of benefits of price pull back on my favor. still they told me that i crossed 2500 limit bcz of floating minus, commission and spreads.
  • #13,390
  • Jan 7, 2023 10:56am Jan 7, 2023 10:56am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-It is no wonder why, I'm sure. In this game, you have to risk money to make money. It is no different with instant funding models. You take on less risk by not having to prove yourself first. The firm also takes on less risk, so much so, that the offer does not even compute in most cases. Better to end this discussion here. People will make their own choices in life.
Right. It's all about risk management and even more particularly about your strategy. If you get that right your funding method gets much less important.
  • #13,391
  • Jan 7, 2023 11:06am Jan 7, 2023 11:06am
Quoting inversio
OFP SCAM on my 50k acc they mailed that i break the dd of 5% daily on 20th dec. and send me a graph where eqity line and margin line showing. according to that graph i shown them i didnt break daily dd, and still left some room according to daily high and low point. also i gave them manual calcualtion how i servived the dd breach. on that day begining i had few trade from 19th, and those were around -150. so according to that my daily equity dd limit is 2500+150= 2650, but my that days total loss was 2424, means 2424-150 = 2274 on equity, and according...
One of the biggest problems with props are that they use RO start for calculation floating loss. Everyone knows that the RO prices don't reflect real prices and often your floating loss can increase 10x for the RO hour. This just shows that they don't want you to be profitable. Hopefully one day we will have a prop who makes the calculations a couple of minutes before the RO starts and also ignores the floating loss during RO.
  • #13,393
  • Jan 7, 2023 11:59am Jan 7, 2023 11:59am
Quoting Ai1108
Hidden
-Generally speaking, are these normal results? Honestly curious. I do not communicate with any traders regarding this sort of thing.
  • #13,394
  • Jan 7, 2023 12:00pm Jan 7, 2023 12:00pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I think that he was just using it as an example to illustrate his point. But that being said, regardless of the account balance, everyone must determine their own risk-tolerance and allowable risk-per-trade, whether that's 1% or 2% etc.. The disconnect often occurs when newbie traders apply their risk-per-trade based on the overall account size in lieu of the actual draw-down allowance (which is the real account size). {quote}-To each their own, but I think that it may depend on the person and their goals/circumstances. After all, 10k of...
In reference to image you posted, you need to calculate the profits on top of your $198, not based on your scaled account. Also, it is highly likely that MFF won't send your trades to the market as they expect you to lose. So they might be actually losing if you are steadily winning. Your $198 would be around $1250 at phase 10, not 145K. It's also insignificant what MFF makes but you if you get to withdraw your 50% of the profits you would have made and deposited those to your own account, you would have made a lot more than $1250. $198 does not turn to 145K by making 10x 20% profit.
  • #13,395
  • Jan 7, 2023 12:01pm Jan 7, 2023 12:01pm
Quoting TraderTero
{quote}If you think that the case is that, then why would anyone ever want to get any funding? Just trade your $100 bucks to millions.
It only makes sense to take those fundings where the DD offered considerably exceeds the money paid for the fee. And that's the whole point. If the DD is equivalent or even lower than the fee I would never buy it and rather traded the same amount on my private account. On the other hand, getting a possibility of eg. $500 DD for only a $100 fee is a good choice of earning much more with the prop firm than I could make on the private account (with the equivalent risk taken).

Quoting TraderTero
{quote}Maybe because with a one million funded account you can have a 50K max loss of some else money.
No. It's because $1mil account would cost me about $4.5k but gives me up to 50k available for trading! It's more than 11 times bigger trading budget! (or even 22x if I use the maximum DD rather than just daily) Regardless if it's someone else's or mine.

Quoting TraderTero
{quote}It's much easier to turn 100K equity to 10K profit than $500 to 10k profit.
Of course it is. If I can get 10k trading budget for the $500 fee I will always chose the prop firm over the personal account. What I'm questioning is buying $500 trading budget (eg. if the 100k account allowed for only $500 DD) for the same $500 fee. That wouldn't make any sense. Trading the same amount on personal account brings me more benefit as the profit split is 100:0 (rather than 80:20 or 90:10)

Quoting TraderTero
{quote}If you trade your 100k funded account as if it was a $500 account, then it will be as hard but for me the $500 risk represent the risk I'm willing to take in order to gain a 10k profit. The max loss is just a value for my risk settings. In the scaling account the max loss $100 just happens to match the account opening fee but once the account is fully scaled my risk is still the same $100.
Dtto. 100k funded account should be traded as if it was $10k (as the max DD of 10%) or better 5k (daily DD of 5%) but definitely not as if it was $500. Making 10k profit having 10k total DD limit should be exactly the same difficult as making 10k profit with 10k private account

Quoting TraderTero
{quote}
Please take a look at my Trade Explorer, I have made about 10% per month in profit. My scaling account with that would now be at 20k and my $100 around $150. It's quite obvious that I can make much more money with trading a 20k account with a max $1600 loss than with my $150 buck account.
You're preaching to the choir man. I'm also funded. When I purchased my last funded account it was 250k with E8 for $790 (xmas sale). Why? Because I got 20k for trading for only $790 investment. It will gradually scale up as I make more profit (unlike with other challenge accounts E8 scales up with every profit split by the amount you gain). That makes sense. But I would never buy it should they offer me only $790 DD limit for my $790 fee. As simple as that.
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #13,396
  • Jan 7, 2023 12:11pm Jan 7, 2023 12:11pm
Quoting TraderTero
In reference to image you posted
-You are still going on about this? It is better to drop it. You have made so many incorrect and incoherent comments and fail to clearly address all of the valid points that are made against those comments. The argument is pointless. Just do as you wish. You do not need to believe anyone here.
  • #13,397
  • Jan 7, 2023 12:35pm Jan 7, 2023 12:35pm
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} "Want to compare to a challenge.....pay $500 for 100K with 10% DD (10K)....they ask for 10% with 10% DD stage and 5% with 10% target stage 2.......pu the $500 in personal, stage 1 flips it to $1,000 and stage 2 makes 50% to $1,500.....so after completing the 2 stages you will have $1,500 in personal or $10K MAX LOSS (not fake equity, actual $10K max loss)" Please explain how your $500 turns to $1500 or grows 300% while your challenge account grows 15%. I can see that you state: "Whatever your risk of ruin is it must be applied to 100% of...
Absolutely......I pay $500 for a challenge and I also put $500 in personal. On the challenge in stage 1 I must flip the account....make 10K (10%) without losing $10K (10% MAX LOSS) translated to the personal account I must make $500 without losing $500. If I accomplish this I know move to stage 2 in challenge and I have $1,000 in personal
Stage 2 requires only 5% (5K) still 10% max loss, so 50%, 50% in personal takes me to $1500
I know have $1500 in personal account, but I have passed my challenge and now have a 10K max loss account.
Once again, you are completely missing the MOST IMPORTANT POINT IN ALL OF THIS........your max DD in your personal account is 100% of your EQUITY, your max loss with the prop is not 100% of YOUR EQUITY, it is only 100% of WHAT THE MAX LOSS IS.
  • #13,398
  • Jan 7, 2023 12:40pm Jan 7, 2023 12:40pm
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} In reference to image you posted, you need to calculate the profits on top of your $198, not based on your scaled account. Also, it is highly likely that MFF won't send your trades to the market as they expect you to lose. So they might be actually losing if you are steadily winning. Your $198 would be around $1250 at phase 10, not 145K. It's also insignificant what MFF makes but you if you get to withdraw your 50% of the profits you would have made and deposited those to your own account, you would have made a lot more than $1250. $198...
all i can say is OMG!!!!!!!!!!! Please wrap your brain around this.......... the % of profit on the personal account is based on equity because you can lose 100%, the % of profit with the prop is based on the MAX LOSS ALLOWED. If you risk 5 % per trade on your personal account, the equivalent is to risk 5% of THE MAX LOSS AT THE PROP, not the equity....otherwise you violate in two trades. So if the risk must be based on max loss, so is the profit.
This truly should not be so hard to understand.
  • #13,399
  • Jan 7, 2023 1:36pm Jan 7, 2023 1:36pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Absolutely......I pay $500 for a challenge and I also put $500 in personal. On the challenge in stage 1 I must flip the account....make 10K (10%) without losing $10K (10% MAX LOSS) translated to the personal account I must make $500 without losing $500. If I accomplish this I know move to stage 2 in challenge and I have $1,000 in personal Stage 2 requires only 5% (5K) still 10% max loss, so 50%, 50% in personal takes me to $1500 I know have $1500 in personal account, but I have passed my challenge and now have a 10K max loss account. Once...
Got it. Thanks. Hopefully your broker has very low stop-out levels.
  • #13,400
  • Jan 7, 2023 2:40pm Jan 7, 2023 2:40pm
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} Got it. Thanks. Hopefully your broker has very low stop-out levels.
I don't use a broker. I am funded $1 million plus across MFF,FTMO, TFF and TFTP. I am allotted 10% max loss, 12% at MFF. It is the equivalent of trading a personal 105-110K account. I trade it as if it is a 100-110K account, therefore I don't even approach violating any DD rules.
My initial investment was very small and I just reinvested my refunded fee every time to purchase another challenge. That, my friend, is how you scale.
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