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  • #12,441
  • Nov 17, 2022 8:29am Nov 17, 2022 8:29am
Quoting TrAndy1
I hate to say it but in Germany you pay over 50% taxes on selfemployed gains from prop firms, when a certain swallow is reached. On personal account it is flat ~25%.
Balkan is paradise for such a thing you pay only 10% yearly on withdrawals made....
  • #12,442
  • Nov 17, 2022 8:37am Nov 17, 2022 8:37am
Quoting mizi123
{quote} Balkan is paradise for such a thing you pay only 10% yearly on withdrawals made....
Yes, but most speak their language and some Russian. In schools they did not learn English some years ago, only Russian. So that could be a problem and the living standard there is far off from that in Germany too. And actually I do not want to be hit by any missile from Ukraine or Russia which accidentally hits a Balkan country.
  • #12,443
  • Nov 17, 2022 8:49am Nov 17, 2022 8:49am
I am not a scalper but I do daytrades so slippage can add up over time. On personal account trading I notice positive slippages too which I did not get on MFF, TFF at all.
  • #12,444
  • Nov 17, 2022 8:57am Nov 17, 2022 8:57am
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Yes, but most speak their language and some Russian. In schools they did not learn English some years ago, only Russian. So that could be a problem and the living standard there is far off from that in Germany too. And actually I do not want to be hit by any missile from Ukraine or Russia which accidentally hits a Balkan country.
Yesssss so these luxuries cost you 50% no woories we are farway from russia, we are in NATO and have english schools too
  • #12,445
  • Nov 17, 2022 9:04am Nov 17, 2022 9:04am
I am actually simulating a 200k account on major prop firm like MFF on my personal account. So for funded I would need to make e^(13%/12%)=2,71828^(1,083333) =3. If I do the same again on funded account, I would get on 200k account with 12% gain on a month around 18k, but on taxes less than ~9k, so all in all it is compar-able to my 1k*3(=funded)*3=9k minus 25% so ~7k net after tax. And this is without any rules, no bad slippage at all and full scalability to "sky" on personal account.
  • #12,446
  • Nov 17, 2022 9:11am Nov 17, 2022 9:11am
On FTMO in comparison to prop firm account it would not make sense, when you do the following equation. You need to make 150% on FTMO account, with compounding included it is factor 4.5. So equally like having 4850 Euro here, because of 1080 € challenge fee on FTMO. Then doing again 15% I get 24k on FTMO as payout, where I would be on personal on 22k (comparable) before taxes (!). Even I do 10% in a month on FTMO, I get on 200k funded 16k, which is less than 4850* 2,72=13.2k on PA after paying taxes. So FTMO does not make any sense to me at all after considering taxes. And when I hear banning from FTMO that is red flag too.
  • #12,447
  • Nov 17, 2022 9:35am Nov 17, 2022 9:35am
All in all it feels much less stressful trading on personal account. No time pressure to meet certain goals, no other rules, no bad slippage. Having unlimited time is good.
  • #12,448
  • Nov 17, 2022 9:43am Nov 17, 2022 9:43am
I already would pass Phase 1 on MFF because I was up 150% already. But then in DD on verification. So on props you always starts from beginning, so having a loss or being in a loss is much easier on props and therefore psychologically more stressful and painful. Because if I do not loose that much I am always in gains on personal.
  • #12,449
  • Nov 17, 2022 9:44am Nov 17, 2022 9:44am
I think ftmo, e8 tff tft mff are fine in terms of normal trading and payouts. IF you want to go yolo then it seems only MFF.
  • #12,450
  • Nov 17, 2022 9:45am Nov 17, 2022 9:45am
Quoting TrAndy1
On FTMO in comparison to prop firm account it would not make sense, when you do the following equation. You need to make 150% on FTMO account, with compounding included it is factor 4.5. So equally like having 4850 Euro here, because of 1080 € challenge fee on FTMO. Then doing again 15% I get 24k on FTMO as payout, where I would be on personal on 22k (comparable) before taxes (!). Even I do 10% in a month on FTMO, I get on 200k funded 16k, which is less than 4850* 2,72=13.2k on PA after paying taxes. So FTMO does not make any sense to me at all...
Have to disagree. I am funded at 4 firms and adding E8 after January.
Reason #1.... The size(s) I am trading (DD only, as that is what I consider the size of account to be) are many multiples of my original investment. In addition, most of the funding is simply reinvesting profits and/or refunded fees. This is exponential when compounding profits in a prop vs. personal account. Of course, you may make a personal account risk free simply by pulling your original investment. However, my reinvested profits yield 5-6 times the account size vs. compounding a personal account. This is also not considering the 25-30% scale every 3-4 months.
Reason #2....Your own money is at risk. If I have 2 million at prop (equivalent of 200-240K personal) and I started with maybe 2-3K outlay and I blow it all up, the resources (time and money) to get back to 200K ARE FAR LESS than taking 2-3K and getting it back to 200K in a personal account.
Just my opinion, this is how I AM COMFORTABLE trading after having traded personal accounts for 5-6 years.
As a US trader, trading a personal account is also extremely limiting as far as instruments you can trade (no metals, indices) and broker selection, so that comes into play as well.
Ultimately, a combination of personal and prop firms is probably the best option.
  • #12,451
  • Nov 17, 2022 9:50am Nov 17, 2022 9:50am
Quoting Takisd
I think ftmo, e8 tff tft mff are fine in terms of normal trading and payouts. IF you want to go yolo then it seems only MFF.
100% agree.
  • #12,452
  • Nov 17, 2022 9:58am Nov 17, 2022 9:58am
Statistics reveald by CEO i think!!
Inserted Video
  • #12,453
  • Nov 17, 2022 10:19am Nov 17, 2022 10:19am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Have to disagree. I am funded at 4 firms and adding E8 after January. Reason #1.... The size(s) I am trading (DD only, as that is what I consider the size of account to be) are many multiples of my original investment. In addition, most of the funding is simply reinvesting profits and/or refunded fees. This is exponential when compounding profits in a prop vs. personal account. Of course, you may make a personal account risk free simply by pulling your original investment. However, my reinvested profits yield 5-6 times the account size vs....
Talking only about math, there are no two opinions you agree. So it matters much from where you are trading. In USA there are not much options and I do not know taxation there. But from Germany it makes sense only up to ~16k profits annually, because then you can pay easily more than just trading on personal accounts. So I do not say it is not profitable at all, but when I put in all numbers in, it simply does not make sense to trade 100% throughout the year fully on prop firm accounts. Having less stress or more fun is another topic. I just wanted to say something about my latest experiences, how I feel when trading other accounts than at prop firms.
  • #12,454
  • Nov 17, 2022 10:32am Nov 17, 2022 10:32am
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Talking only about math, there are no two opinions you agree. So it matters much from where you are trading. In USA there are not much options and I do not know taxation there. But from Germany it makes sense only up to ~16k profits annually, because then you can pay easily more than just trading on personal accounts. So I do not say it is not profitable at all, but when I put in all numbers in, it simply does not make sense to trade 100% throughout the year fully on prop firm accounts. Having less stress or more fun is another topic. I...
Absolutely agree, with your situation, makes much more sense. In the US, our max tax on ordinary income is 37% and it's 24% or less up to 170K, next bracket jumps to 32% and you need to be earning $539K + to hit the 37%. I also reside in a state with no state income tax. There are some strategies to form an LLC, but truly only advantageous if you fall within a pretty small window. Capital gains in the US are much less ON ASSETS HELD OVER ONE YEAR. Under one year, taxed as ordinary income.
In a nutshell, between the limitations already imposed to US traders, no tax difference whatsoever between personal and prop and the greater value obtained from prop firms from a pure math perspective.......in the USA, prop firms are a no brainer.
  • #12,455
  • Nov 17, 2022 10:43am Nov 17, 2022 10:43am
Quoting TrAndy1
What is the problem with FTMO now ? They fear higher profits they need to payout or what ?
-Likely, some of the higher-risk traders are doing more damage than they care to absorb. It is not really surprising. Even MFF has very recently stated that traders are getting smarter, as they are seeing a higher percentage of traders getting funded. It makes sense, because even gamblers will eventually have to rethink what they are doing since most do not have an unlimited supply of capital for challenges. They will eventually get tired of spending their paychecks on challenges and losing.

At the end of the day, these gamblers are no good for prop firms. Maybe they are good in the beginning, as most will fail before getting a payout. But eventually, they will either be forced to quit, or, figure out ways to tweak their approach so that they can actually get paid and stop losing all of their money. Once that happens, they can just start accumulating many accounts and recycling them until they inevitably manage to win big. That's probably where we are now and why firms like FTMO are deciding to take action against it.

Just guessing here.

Although I can understand the desire to push these kinds of traders out, it does set a dangerous precedent for traders. We should be watching this very closely.

In my opinion, part of the problem is the leverage that is being offered. That's easy to fix. Unfortunately, most firms probably know that it is a double-edged sword because it also produces higher turn-over rates for them.
  • #12,456
  • Nov 17, 2022 10:54am Nov 17, 2022 10:54am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Likely, some of the higher-risk traders are doing more damage than they care to absorb. It is not really surprising. Even MFF has very recently stated that traders are getting smarter, as they are seeing a higher percentage of traders getting funded. It makes sense, because even gamblers will eventually have to rethink what they are doing since most do not have an unlimited supply of capital for challenges. They will eventually get tired of spending their paychecks on challenges and losing. At the end of the day, these gamblers are no good...
i red the whole article, and still it s not quite clear what gambling really means for them. using broad terms like overleverging and accounts rolling etc. is a max risk of 3% accross all ur open positions over leveraged? is it the amount of trades open at any 1 time? is it making a % in a single day and then losing that without even scractching the daily limit? regardless of the account that 1 trades. i understand risking 5% on 1 single trade reckless. but isn t just that is it? there s a lot of grey area where they could enforce that?
  • #12,457
  • Nov 17, 2022 10:56am Nov 17, 2022 10:56am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Likely, some of the higher-risk traders are doing more damage than they care to absorb. It is not really surprising. Even MFF has very recently stated that traders are getting smarter, as they are seeing a higher percentage of traders getting funded. It makes sense, because even gamblers will eventually have to rethink what they are doing since most do not have an unlimited supply of capital for challenges. They will eventually get tired of spending their paychecks on challenges and losing. At the end of the day, these gamblers are no good...
Exactly. Lower leverage would be the fix. However, it appears the prop firms now want the best of BOTH worlds....failed challenges/accounts AND small payouts. If the lower the leverage, they need to lower the targets and/or extend the challenge.....You cannot encourage gambling in the challenges and then condone it on the funded account........THEY CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.
Ultimately, we should be looking for firms that want us to trade the same way in the evaluation/challenge as we do in the funded account. That would mean actually copying the traders and having a vested interest IN THEIR SUCCESS. In today's world, it is the opposite. If they do not want gamblers, don't set the targets in the challenges for gamblers......Once again, these greedy pigs that have been sitting on an ATM machine for a few years are now crying because they are not going to be as profitable?
Why? Because now they have better, more intelligent traders? Isn't this what they are looking for in the first place? Their marketing certainly appears so. After all, the more profit the trader makes, the more the company makes, correct?
  • #12,458
  • Nov 17, 2022 11:04am Nov 17, 2022 11:04am
Quoting 1odi
{quote} i red the whole article, and still it s not quite clear what gambling really means for them. using broad terms like overleverging and accounts rolling etc. is a max risk of 3% accross all ur open positions over leveraged? is it the amount of trades open at any 1 time? is it making a % in a single day and then losing that without even scractching the daily limit? regardless of the account that 1 trades. i understand risking 5% on 1 single trade reckless. but isn t just that is it? there s a lot of grey area where they could enforce that?

ALL the new firms have new weird rules about "risky behavior". FTMO's is new but all the ones i am toying with at the moment have the same vague non descript rules.
  • #12,459
  • Nov 17, 2022 11:06am Nov 17, 2022 11:06am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Exactly. Lower leverage would be the fix. However, it appears the prop firms now want the best of BOTH worlds....failed challenges/accounts AND small payouts. If the lower the leverage, they need to lower the targets and/or extend the challenge.....You cannot encourage gambling in the challenges and then condone it on the funded account........THEY CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. Ultimately, we should be looking for firms that want us to trade the same way in the evaluation/challenge as we do in the funded account. That would mean actually copying...
MFF continues to set itself farther apart from the others.
  • #12,460
  • Edited 11:18am Nov 17, 2022 11:07am | Edited 11:18am
Quoting pipmaster77
There are some strategies to form an LLC, but truly only advantageous if you fall within a pretty small window.
-I assume that this is in reference to taxes. But from a legal perspective, it should be clarified for readers that an LLC does offer advantages in terms of legal/asset protection.

Depending on how your business is structured, you can see pretty heavy tax rates without being in the upper brackets. One of my non-trading businesses paid out quite a bit (relatively speaking) in recent years due to self-employment tax and Obama Care penalty tax. I think it was eventually restructured as an S-Corp, if I recall correctly.
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