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  • #11,321
  • Oct 7, 2022 4:43pm Oct 7, 2022 4:43pm
Quoting Bizziebee
Maybe they are actually in Iceland? Could explain the bad grammar {image}
That address is for the privacy registrant company. https://withheldforprivacy.com/

You have that option when you register domains at a small additional cost.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #11,322
  • Oct 7, 2022 4:46pm Oct 7, 2022 4:46pm
Quoting Inception12
{quote} I agree with you entirely. As Takisd has pointed out, the prop firm space is now very big and with all the data that these firms have now on traders, any new firm that wants to go to the top will have to pull out some masterstroke like when apple launched the 1st smartphone. New firms are experimenting with the instant funding option because it seems the model challenge cant really be improved that further and still make profits out of it. Maybe one firm will crack the magic formula and make instant funding work but the maths is really not...
Yes, as much as I dislike instant funding because they provide no value or even negative value in a lot of cases, there really is no way to make it have a value and be profitable for the company due to the reasons you stated. If they are truly funding you, how can they give more than you can lose without the additional revenue of failed challenges. If just a demo and they are giving say 4 times more value than what you pay, they need 5 failures for every trader earning 10% profit that is due payment. If it is profitable, it would seem to be too slim to be worth operating.
  • #11,323
  • Oct 7, 2022 4:47pm Oct 7, 2022 4:47pm
Quoting TrAndy1
If cheaper price and having a better score for MFF was the main reason 1.5 years ago that so many joined, how do we know what are their profit margins ? How do we know it is not possible to be more efficient, more automated, having a better copy trading algorithm, having indepth market knowledge and being traders, and so on, that even much cheaper offers with again double score of the actual MFF offers around 7 then 12 or 14 like autoproptraders or GoatfundingFX or EGFX are impossible ?
Scoring had nothing to do with it. I appreciate the effort you put into your models, but that's just what they are. Binary models.

There's some on that list that you've scored high.

However, when looking at the real world conditions....they are beyond absurd to be scored that high.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #11,324
  • Oct 7, 2022 4:52pm Oct 7, 2022 4:52pm
Quoting Cryptosurf
{quote} Scoring had nothing to do with it. I appreciate the effort you put into your models, but that's just what they are. Binary models. There's some on that list that you've scored high. However, when looking at the real world conditions....they are beyond absurd to be scored that high.
The score is simply how much more you get for your fee vs. trading that same amount on your own. Very valuable on its own as your starting point. It then needs to be filtered, exactly as you state, by trading conditions, payout history, etc.
When assessing the value and then applying the filter there are 6 firms that are trusted AND offer good value.......Tier 1 would be MFF and FTMO and Tier2 would be TFF,TFTP, E8 and TPT. I would go further and say that TFF is above the rest in Tier 2.
  • #11,325
  • Edited 5:20pm Oct 7, 2022 5:05pm | Edited 5:20pm
Let us estimate the profit margin and potential max score possible on any prop firm with the MFF statistics they provide because they give us some insights on numbers.

My Forex Funds are back with their monthly stats. They are featured for the two previous months, October and November.
October statistics:
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Screenshot_2.png Size: 21 KB

November statistics:
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Screenshot_3.png Size: 20 KB

So the average payout looks about $4200 to $5000 according to them. In October 0.223% got a payout on all challenges and in November it was only 0.072%. So the conclusion is on challenges, that the real cost are max. ca. $11 with $5k*0.223% with no overhead or fixed cost included here. So the max. score could be extraordinary high. The main thing must be overhead and fixed cost here. Otherwise it does not make sense and challenges could be offered at a fraction of actual prices (than MFF).
  • #11,326
  • Oct 7, 2022 6:03pm Oct 7, 2022 6:03pm
Quoting TrAndy1
Let us estimate the profit margin and potential max score possible on any prop firm with the MFF statistics they provide because they give us some insights on numbers. My Forex Funds are back with their monthly stats. They are featured for the two previous months, October and November. October statistics: {image} November statistics: {image} So the average payout looks about $4200 to $5000 according to them. In October 0.223% got a payout on all challenges and in November it was only 0.072%. So...
These stats are questionable. How do 97% of people who pass phase 2 fail to reach payout? That would be a higher failure rate than for phase 1.
  • #11,327
  • Oct 7, 2022 6:10pm Oct 7, 2022 6:10pm
Quoting TrAndy1
why it cannot be that every two or three years new prop firms can come around the corner with again twice as good offers than actual best one as a kind of evolution process over time ?
-I agree. It is a valid point. Which is why I am always looking at new offerings. I personally do not think that what MFF offers is the best that can be offered. In fact, I think that we might be limiting ourselves if we to get married to the idea that there isn't much room for improvement, not to mention the fact that there would be very little pressure or incentive for firms to improve or offer anything better. Unless we have hard numbers to see how much more room there actually is, then I have to assume that more can be done.

Based on MFF's statistics and what they have admitted to in the past regarding their growth (most notably in terms of capital self-reliance and sustainability), I would guess that there is still a lot of room for improvement. I can only guess, though; I could be wrong. For newer firms that enter the market, they likely feel that it is risky to try new things, especially if they do not know what they are doing, so most of them just play it safe and copy what they see has worked for others.


Quoting TrAndy1
how do we know what are their profit margins ? How do we know it is not possible to be more efficient, more automated, having a better copy trading algorithm, having indepth market knowledge and being traders, and so on, that even much cheaper offers with again double score of the actual MFF offers around 7 then 12 or 14 like autoproptraders or GoatfundingFX or EGFX are impossible ?
-We don't. Unless someone here has inside knowledge and actually knows the hard numbers, we can only surmise. But based on what has been publicly disclosed, it does not seem unreasonable at all to think that firms like FTMO and MFF are laughing all the way to the bank.
  • #11,328
  • Oct 7, 2022 6:21pm Oct 7, 2022 6:21pm
Quoting Inception12
These stats are questionable. How do 97% of people who pass phase 2 fail to reach payout? That would be a higher failure rate than for phase 1.
-Not entirely sure what you are asking, but if you have 100 traders and 80% of them fail the challenge phases, out of that remaining 20% (so, 20 traders), you could still have 50% of them fail to reach payout (i.e. you are calculating percentages of two different totals).

If that is not what you meant, then I would say that when people are trading live, there are different psychological elements at work; people may change their trading behavior, panic, get greedy etc., and since they need to survive and avoid blowing their account until payout, many of them fail to reach it.
  • #11,329
  • Oct 7, 2022 6:31pm Oct 7, 2022 6:31pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Not entirely sure what you are asking, but if you have 100 traders and 80% of them fail the challenge phases, out of that remaining 20% (so, 20 traders), you could still have 50% of them fail to reach payout (i.e. you are calculating percentages of two different totals). If that is not what you meant, then I would say that when people are trading live, there are different psychological elements at work; people may change their trading behavior, panic, get greedy etc., and since they need to survive and avoid blowing their account until payout,...
Using an example of 10,000 traders buying the challenges, those stats would look something like this:
passed phase 1 . 1000 (10%)
passed phase 2 . 240 (24% of traders who pass phase 1)
reached 1st payout. 7.2 (3% of traders who pass phase 2)

The 1st 2 percentages are not surprising, but the last one is very shocking and doesn't really seem accurate. Despite all the pressure that comes with trading a "live account", 3% would be too low. If that number is correct, then these prop firms would be making an absolute killing and i should think of starting one.
  • #11,330
  • Oct 7, 2022 7:29pm Oct 7, 2022 7:29pm
Quoting Inception12
{quote} Using an example of 10,000 traders buying the challenges, those stats would look something like this: passed phase 1 . 1000 (10%) passed phase 2 . 240 (24% of traders who pass phase 1) reached 1st payout. 7.2 (3% of traders who pass phase 2) The 1st 2 percentages are not surprising, but the last one is very shocking and doesn't really seem accurate. Despite all the pressure that comes with trading a "live account", 3% would be too low. If that number is correct, then these prop firms would be making an absolute killing and i should think...
Yes, makes no sense. Phase 1 is by far the most difficult aspect of these models. Since phase 2 is half the target and double the time, you should be able to trade 1/4 the size as phase 1. Funded, reduce the risk so as to just not blow it. That being said, I have blown phase 2s and funded accounts, however, I learned to reduce the risk. I truly believe the biggest issue is phycological for sure. Traders get so excited that they moved on they just overtrade and succumb to the emotions. Most truly do not understand the emotional part of trading....the fear, the greed, FOMO, etc. Emotions should never be too high or too low. One you can get your emotions under control and become mechanical, it becomes much easier. I literally take a 2-3 day pause when passing each stage.
  • #11,331
  • Oct 7, 2022 7:51pm Oct 7, 2022 7:51pm
Quoting maahome
Has anyone tried Autoproptrader yet? Interested to hear the feedback. Cheers all maahome

Anyone tried this firm yet? Any feedback appreciated.
cheers all
maahome
  • #11,332
  • Oct 7, 2022 8:19pm Oct 7, 2022 8:19pm
Quoting Inception12
If that number is correct, then these prop firms would be making an absolute killing and i should think of starting one.
-Yes. As I say, without knowing the hard numbers (especially operating costs), if we base our assumptions on what has been publicly disclosed, then it is not unreasonable at all to think that the top firms are killing it. I could be wrong, but this is why I think that there is still more room for improvement.

That being said, whether or not EternityGlobalFX is as scam or not is another matter. Even if they are legit, I personally doubt that they will be able to sustain their models for very long. However, that would not necessarily stop me from trying one, depending on how I felt about things. Short-term profits are still profits, it's just a matter of priorities and preference etc..

Quoting maahome
Anyone tried this firm yet? Any feedback appreciated. cheers all maahome
-Nobody yet, as far as I know. Even if they are legit, the guy has had more than ample time to set up a secondary (non-crypto) payment option, but has yet to do so.

I think that these too-good-to-be-true offers can be so seductive, which is understandable, but it is important to be remain level-headed and to not become too blinded by the shiny object. Scams are presented this way for a reason. If you have money to blow, then maybe it doesn't matter much, but if you're worried about it being a scam, then you probably shouldn't be risking your money with it. Risk is always subjective and relative.
  • #11,333
  • Oct 7, 2022 8:33pm Oct 7, 2022 8:33pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Yes, makes no sense. Phase 1 is by far the most difficult aspect of these models. Since phase 2 is half the target and double the time, you should be able to trade 1/4 the size as phase 1. Funded, reduce the risk so as to just not blow it. That being said, I have blown phase 2s and funded accounts, however, I learned to reduce the risk. I truly believe the biggest issue is phycological for sure. Traders get so excited that they moved on they just overtrade and succumb to the emotions. Most truly do not understand the emotional part of trading....the...
I highly doubt the last number but if the first 2 are correct then on average, only 2 to 3 out of every 100 people who buy challenges get to the live account. That really looks like a very profitable business regardless of what those 2 people can achieve once funded.
  • #11,334
  • Oct 7, 2022 11:45pm Oct 7, 2022 11:45pm
Quoting TrAndy1
They (EternityGlobalFX=EGFX)) seem to have a real office in Las Vegas, when I made a google map search. I have attached some pictures and infos about them here. {image}{image}{image}{image}

TrAndy1, it's really sad to see you selling yourself out .

A financial company listed in Las Vegas is already a huge alarm bell....

This post by profitfarmer here basically sums it up.

Quoting profitfarmer
{quote} hi TrAndy1, good, but missed the critical important pic: {image} THIS picture has all you need to know about the place ( yes, unedited!, as from google. it isnt a funny text doctored in!) cheers! Z
  • #11,335
  • Oct 8, 2022 1:00am Oct 8, 2022 1:00am
everything bubble ?
  • #11,336
  • Oct 8, 2022 2:37am Oct 8, 2022 2:37am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Yes, makes no sense. Phase 1 is by far the most difficult aspect of these models. Since phase 2 is half the target and double the time, you should be able to trade 1/4 the size as phase 1. Funded, reduce the risk so as to just not blow it. That being said, I have blown phase 2s and funded accounts, however, I learned to reduce the risk. I truly believe the biggest issue is phycological for sure. Traders get so excited that they moved on they just overtrade and succumb to the emotions. Most truly do not understand the emotional part of trading....the...
True, phycological factor plays major role in phase 2 and Funded accounts.
Intraday only.
  • #11,337
  • Oct 8, 2022 2:40am Oct 8, 2022 2:40am
Quoting Inception12
That really looks like a very profitable business regardless of what those 2 people can achieve once funded.
-Do not forget that firms like MFF also have direct funding models with statistics that are not even published. That model, alone, is a goldmine because MFF can literally not lose. No matter what happens, MFF will profit with that model, and I see so many people trading it.
  • #11,338
  • Oct 8, 2022 3:59am Oct 8, 2022 3:59am
Just making a simple example for calculating the potential profit margin of MFF or any prop firm for those 2 step challenges. Let's say 20%, pass Phase 1, then 20% pass Phase 2, that is 4% left. Then 20% of the achieved a payout, so that 0.8% of all starters of challenges. On a 100k challenge that would be out of 125 participants $62.5k profits on fees minus the average payout of $5k one achieves. So everyone sees that the profit margin is very huge. It would be possible to lower the prices to a 90% discount and they still could make some money. So the EGFX offer which is about a 75% discount seems reasonable when I put those numbers in orderly manner.
  • #11,339
  • Oct 8, 2022 4:07am Oct 8, 2022 4:07am
Let us make a different example. 20% pass Phase 1, 40% of them pass Phase 2 (half profit target=double amount percentage that pass as assumption) and then 50% gets a payout when funded. So 4% achieved an average payout of $5k, means on 100k challenge of $500 fee, that $12.5k fees -$5k payout=$7.5k profit still for the prop firm. So I would not be asstonished when challenge fees are at least 50% to 66% cheaper than actual prices of MFF because of that high profit margin calculated. So max. potential score as value for money on any challenge should be at least 14 to 22 and that is still a conservative estimation when you compare my previous post.
  • #11,340
  • Oct 8, 2022 4:20am Oct 8, 2022 4:20am
Why live account traders at prop firms fail more than phase 1. A lecture by Takisd.

When a user has a set target to trade, they will stop at said target. When there is no target, they are more likely to over trade.

Conclusion: Traders can luck their way to live accounts, but when they have to trade a month, they fail.

Live is by far the hardest part of the challenges. Its when your limits aren't defined, to think otherwise is a fault.
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