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  • #8,361
  • Jun 4, 2022 9:29am Jun 4, 2022 9:29am
Quoting TrAndy1
For me my priority is still the same after reviewing all the prop firms offers and its scores. It is TFF, FTMO, MFF & E8 in that order. The Funded Trader and Finotive Trading also looks interesting at the first glance but they have problems with copy trading, which is essential for me when having so many accounts. On Blue Guardian Capital I do not like that many hidden rules they have to continue looking them any further. The other offers are not that attractive to me when I look at their scores. The 4 prop firms also have their own servers. MFF...
I completely agree with the 4. Not necessarily in exact order, but those are definitely the 4. Other than getting paid, having their own server is the #1 priority to me. Just seems to be a much cleaner experience and if spreads become unsatisfactory, they can always remove and/or seek out new LPs.
  • #8,362
  • Jun 4, 2022 9:50am Jun 4, 2022 9:50am
Quoting TrAndy1
For me my priority is still the same after reviewing all the prop firms offers and its scores. It is TFF, FTMO, MFF & E8 in that order. The Funded Trader and Finotive Trading also looks interesting at the first glance but they have problems with copy trading, which is essential for me when having so many accounts. On Blue Guardian Capital I do not like that many hidden rules they have to continue looking them any further. The other offers are not that attractive to me when I look at their scores. The 4 prop firms also have their own servers. MFF...
Thanks again for sharing all this work TrAndy1. This is really excellent analysis for anyone researching on prop firm and an excellent tool to get the best offer available.

I'm not sure about the criteria you used to include or not include a firm in the list.
What I can contribute is that, besides FTMO, FTMO, TFF, TFT, I also got paid by The Prop Trading and Traders Central Fund.
They both continue to have horrible in customer service (had to deal with both this week and it's the same than before).

In TFC I only received one payout. In TPT I received 7 payouts since Dec, in multiple accounts, the last one this week. So far so good, although we neve know.
No much hidden rules. TFC has the martingale one. TPT has the limitation of lots for the first 3 months in funded accounts.
I don't recommend TFC. And TPT is far from being the best over there but we don't know much either about the other ones about reliability, except the well established ones.
  • #8,363
  • Edited 3:07pm Jun 4, 2022 10:05am | Edited 3:07pm
TPT were not listed on page 1 of this thread and they also were not listed in the discount codes website where I looked for all the prop firms. That is why I could or have not listed them. I calculated their score, which is 4.0. TPT comes after TrueForexFunds at Rank 7 on my selective list of prop firms. When they do payouts all the time, then they are good. They are in their score and their bit restrictive rules not interesting enough for me to have them in a kind of narrowed down priority list in my eyes.
It is up to you, take what you want. The full list is a starting point, the selective ranking list is considering the more serious offer in a first kind of research and analysis. I must admit that in my priority list I also considered trading conditions like spreads for me as daytrader and hidden rules too, which is of course in its nature a bit subjective.
  • #8,364
  • Jun 5, 2022 3:50am Jun 5, 2022 3:50am
Quoting TrAndy1
TPT were not listed on page 1 of this thread and they also were not listed in the discount codes website where I looked for all the prop firms. That is why I could or have not listed them. I calculated their score, which is 4.0. TPT comes after TrueForexFunds at Rank 7 on my selective list of prop firms. When they do payouts all the time, then they are good. They are in their score and their bit restrictive rules not interesting enough for me to have them in a kind of narrowed down priority list in my eyes. It is up to you, take what you want. The...
The tricky part here is how much weighting should be allocated to certain criteria.

Unfortunately traders will have slightly different thinking in this regard.

I will update your tables in Post 1 and continue to update the Prop Firm's List.

If a Prop is missing that someone thinks should be included please let me know and I will add it to Post 1.

Masterrmind ...........
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #8,365
  • Jun 5, 2022 6:54am Jun 5, 2022 6:54am
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} The tricky part here is how much weighting should be allocated to certain criteria. Unfortunately traders will have slightly different thinking in this regard. I will update your tables in Post 1 and continue to update the Prop Firm's List. If a Prop is missing that someone thinks should be included please let me know and I will add it to Post 1. Masterrmind ...........
I think The Prop Trading should be there, despite all the flaws they may have (bad customer service and lot limitation in funded accounts for the first 3 months).

BTW, Funding Talent could be updated to ceased operations like you mentioned in DT4X.

As this is a topic not just for "veterans" but also for new people looking for props, I would also include The Trading Capital with the warning of potential scam. like you have for others. All evidence so far point to that.

It's impressive how good and rich of information this topic became Mastermind. Well done !

Edit: I would also include Blufx (long time in the market and reputable in payouts - it's for the people to judge if conditions are interesting or not).
Worth to mention https://www.ability.capital. They are new on challenges but being a branch from Audacity I think it's safe to include them there.
  • #8,366
  • Edited 8:51am Jun 5, 2022 8:39am | Edited 8:51am
Quoting TrAndy1
To the ranking of my selective list, I can say for being almost sure now, that with all the offers behind, Blue Guardian Capital is behind Finotive Funding, because BGC is using Purple Trading as their broker. Finotive should have better spreads, I will check this for sure, and also Finotive should have their own server and not using a broker. That would be huge plus in relation to BGC. Also the scaling plan of Finotive is by far more attractive, as I can say now, compared to BGC and The Funded Trader too. TFT is still using a broker, Eightcap,...
Finotive looks great until this hidden gem

8.10.5. This table lays out the profit required to progress to the next scaling Phase. These percentage targets are reset between scales and are not a total increase from the original account balance. As mentioned in Clause 8.10.2., the trader understands that in order to scale their account, this profit split is fully forfeited and cannot be withdrawn:

To me, scaling is not scaling if you must keep it in your account.

MFF, FTMO, TFF, TFT all offer the 25-30% every 3-4 months INDEPENDENT of your withdrawals.


On second glance, I believe you have adjusted the numbers to reflect the much larger scaling in relation to profit earned. They actually scale 70% for every 8,9, 10, etc you earn. This is very good. To me, this would be a great option once one is earning from other accounts as you could scale in lieu of withdrawals.

It also appears table 8.10.5 and 8.10.6 should be reversed.
  • #8,367
  • Jun 5, 2022 8:47am Jun 5, 2022 8:47am
Any program which hinders withdrawal directly or indirectly is a trap.
I was just going through older pages and found some one mentioned https://toptiertrader.com/
It has same reviews like funding talent used to have in trustpioot 4.9 (1.5K) nothing great price wise but if someone ready to give a try not bad
Leaderboard looks like TheFundedtraderpogram.
  • #8,368
  • Jun 5, 2022 9:02am Jun 5, 2022 9:02am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Finotive looks great until this hidden gem 8.10.5. This table lays out the profit required to progress to the next scaling Phase. These percentage targets are reset between scales and are not a total increase from the original account balance. As mentioned in Clause 8.10.2., the trader understands that in order to scale their account, this profit split is fully forfeited and cannot be withdrawn: To me, scaling is not scaling if you must keep it in your account. MFF, FTMO, TFF, TFT all offer the 25-30% every 3-4 months INDEPENDENT of your...
They do appear to ACTUALLY have direct funding that is value for the trader. 100K instant with 100:1 leverage provides $8K DD for $2100. Still, does not compare in value to the 10K in DD you get for $500-550 from the challenge type firms despite having 2 phases to pass.
For those, who want to earn immediately though and prefer no time pressure on hitting targets, this is FAR superior to 5%ers, LUX, CTI, etc.
  • #8,369
  • Jun 5, 2022 9:37am Jun 5, 2022 9:37am
Quoting TrAndy1
There is nothing said about any time limits for the profit goals on the scaling plan at Finotive Funding (FF). So I would assume that you can have much faster scaling, say a meaningful scaling within a few weeks, whenever your reach the profit goal. So you do not need to wait many months or even years to get much better scaling. This is by far the most interesting aspect on this also Hungary based prop firm like TFF. FF is located in the capital city Budapest which is by far the biggest city in this country. I only have good opinions on the experiences...
Yes, two accounts would work. Same concept as adding these guys once you are earning from other props. Set yourself up to not need withdrawals from the "scaling" account.
  • #8,370
  • Jun 5, 2022 10:17am Jun 5, 2022 10:17am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Yes, two accounts would work. Same concept as adding these guys once you are earning from other props. Set yourself up to not need withdrawals from the "scaling" account.
Once they have their own server and I see some payout proofs, I will put them on the list of "considering". My game plan currently

1. Max out MFF, FTMO and TFF. I always stated wouldn't add a third until MFF and FTMO were maxed. However, TFF met all the criteria. Doing so increases funding and diversifies risk as well.
2. Add a fourth or fifth from my considering list, which right now consists of E8 and The Funded Trader. Currently, it would only be E8 as TFT does not have their own server.
If Finotive pans out with their own server and some significant payout proof prior to me adding E8, I would simply add them as the 4th and just scale the account while earning from the first 3.
  • #8,371
  • Jun 5, 2022 11:16am Jun 5, 2022 11:16am
Quoting TrAndy1
On a second look Finotive offer is interesting especially with the scaling plan they offer. I asked the support a couple of questions, waiting for answers. You can also have weekly profit withdraws, which is a plus. If you can scale without any time limits then you can have up to $167000 as max. Drawdown, which is excellent. If they also allow to have 3 accounts of those 200k scaling, then you get an incredible half a million as DD to trade with. That would be by far superior from all other offers. I made my selective prop firm list with their scores...

So am I understanding this? If you trade your account from 200K to 1.67 million, you forfeit 1.47 million but you now get 90% instead of 75%?
  • #8,372
  • Jun 5, 2022 11:27am Jun 5, 2022 11:27am
I've been through them (Finotive) a couple of days ago (FAQs and T&C) regarding the challenge model.

Pretty standard. Only thing that may be a limitation for some people is the rule of 3 max positions per instrument.
Quote
Have any more than 3 open positions of any lot size on the same instrument at any one time. For example, you may have 3 open positions of EURUSD, but if you open a 4th, your account will be terminated.
This is an automated rule, which is checked by our system 24/5. Reports are generated by the system at the start of the European Session and the end of the US Session, so any accounts breaching this rule at any point in the day will only receive an account termination email at these two times.

Weekly payouts are great, although I think we stay in 75% split if we never scale (and we only scale if we leave the profits there like Pipmaster said)

Another interesting (although not 100% clear) rule is this one:
Quote
8.7.5. If the trader finishes a reference period in loss (i.e., your account balance is less than the initial capital with all positions closed), Finotive may top up your balance to the initial capital level. This is known as Covered Losses. To qualify for Covered Losses they must meet ALL 4 of the following criteria: (a) The trader must not have had losses covered previously. (b) Do not breach the Responsible Trading Policy set out in Section 7. (c) Do not breach any trading rules laid out in Clause 8.8. (d) Do not breach any other Clause in these...
The way I read this is that they will cover one month of losses if we don't breach the rule. It's a one time off but sounds nice.

Finally, it's not the firm to blow funded accounts. After the 3rd is not worthwhile
Quote
8.7.2 In order to protect our capital, traders who have failed funded accounts on 3 or more occasions will be capped to a profit split of 25%, with no scaling options. When all losses have been covered by Finotive Funding’s 75% profit share, the Trader will be reinstated to full profit split and account scaling options.

And then they have the subjective rules which basically all firms have in different shapes and forms:
Quote
7.4.6 Finotive Funding reserves the right to Terminate any accounts which Finotive Funding has reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing. No refund will be issued.
7.5. To protect our capital and help our traders succeed we must monitor every account for signs of gambling or reckless trading. This could be in the form of: (a) Risking close to or more than drawdown limits in open trades. (b) Trading large lot sizes around high-impact data releases. (c) Evidence of revenge trading.
7.5.1. Whilst these are not prohibited actions, if we feel that a trader has reckless behaviour, Finotive Funding reserves the right to take action against the trader. This may be in the form of a warning, removal of certain trades from the trader’s history, or in severe cases, immediate account termination.
  • #8,373
  • Jun 5, 2022 11:51am Jun 5, 2022 11:51am
ah... that makes more sense!
Thanks, TrAndy1?
  • #8,374
  • Jun 5, 2022 12:55pm Jun 5, 2022 12:55pm
Quoting TrAndy1
'8.7.3. After 30 days of Funded Status, if the account balance is greater than the balance at the start of the reference period, the trader will be issued a refund of their initial Challenge fee.'
I missed this one.
The rule is pretty standard but it seems that we can only receive the refund if we have profit after one month.
In other companies we get the refund with the first payout, even if that only happened after 2 or 3 months. Here is not clear if we receive it if we are profitable only after the 1st month. It seems not.

Also seems to be riskier to receive weekly profits in the first month. Imagine that we start with 100K, we receive 1K profits in first week, 1K in second week, 1K in third week but then we lose money on 4th week and end up with 99K. Reading this condition by the book it seems that we won't receive the refund.
  • #8,375
  • Jun 5, 2022 2:00pm Jun 5, 2022 2:00pm
'7.5.2. If we see signs of gambling or “all-or-nothing” mentality, we may: (a) Refuse a Trader progressing from Phase 2 to Phase 3. (b) Refuse a profit withdrawal. (c) Refuse Scaling.'

This is show stopper what if you see good setup 4-5% stop loss is considered as gambling. I think there are too many hidden rules out here. Only positive is weekly payouts rests below market level. This may be good firm if it was 2020 or 21 but now too many good firms with better rules.
  • #8,376
  • Edited 2:25pm Jun 5, 2022 2:03pm | Edited 2:25pm
Just woke up, Finotive scaling offer is not attractive because you could do the same or even better compounding on your own broker account of your choice. On every 80% at least you make you can have an increase of 70% of max DD. So it is better you take your money after withdraw and then compound yourself. Then your have your own scaling and still full control of your own money and any withdrawals. Second, Ascot Prime is not the best broker which they use and they have subjective rules which makes it difficult to understand why they could refuse a payout. So I would stay with TrueForexFunds with their own server and super good spreads. I do not think I will consider Finotive anymore. That kind of scaling when you cannot withdraw is in fact no real scaling because you can better compound yourself when you took out your profits when it is withdraw time. Sorry that I might confused, but they still have an overall not bad offer with score of 6.0, which means good value for your fee. For every phase you need to do between 8% to 11% profits on a 10% max. DD to get a 70% increase of your max. DD in their scaling offer. So that offer is just an eye wisher, I hope everyone sees now that compounding yourself on your own broker of your choice is more favourable then taking adventure of that Finotive scaling offer.
  • #8,377
  • Edited 3:01pm Jun 5, 2022 2:46pm | Edited 3:01pm
Let me see if I understand this correctly, To scale 200K to 1.67M...

Without the scaling plan you would generate 57K in profits (12K + 13.5K + 15K + 16.5K)
You build up 212.5K in profit for them instead (16K + 30.6K + 57.8K + 108.1K)

You successfully secure the 1.67M account with 167K drawdown which is significantly less than the 212.5K in profits you generated for them!!!

They have no skin in the game, there is ZERO risk to their bottom line! If you proceed to blow up the account from there, they still made money.
  • #8,378
  • Jun 5, 2022 3:04pm Jun 5, 2022 3:04pm
Quoting TrAndy1
Just woke up, Finotive scaling offer is not attractive because you could do the same or even better compounding on your own broker account of your choice. On every 80% at least you make you can have an increase of 70% of max DD. So it is better you take your money after withdraw and then compound yourself. Then your have your own scaling and still full control of your own money and any withdrawals. Second, Ascot Prime is not the best broker which they use and they have subjective rules which makes it difficult to understand why they could refuse...
That is what I was pointing out earlier. FTMO, TFF, MFF although scaling is only 25-30% every 3-4 months, it is INDEPENDENT of withdrawals. You get your split and scale as well. I was almost sold on the 8% to scale 70% as well, cannot believe we both missed that 8% is TRULY 80% if you were to duplicate on your own. So at that point, they are asking for 80, 90, 100% to scale you 70%.....kinda like the 5%ers where they ask for 250% to scale you 200%.
OK, back to TFF,MFF,FTMO and E8.
  • #8,379
  • Jun 5, 2022 4:10pm Jun 5, 2022 4:10pm
I've been considering altering my strategy..

If passing challenges is not that difficult & time consuming for a trader.... Is it better to run live accounts at significantly higher risk @ let's say 2% per trade (commissions included) with 1-2 backup accounts waiting, plus stop trading for rest of month once 8% target is hit.

vs.

Merging the accounts and using way more responsible .5% risk per trade so I would never lose it when the eventual drawdown occurs.


Crunching the numbers @ 2% risk, I can usually get a good 4-6 month run out of an account before blowing up.

Benefits...
1. Once target is hit, I would have tons of time off every month to do other things.
2. I wouldn't have to recover from drawdown months to get next payout. Instead of digging out of a -5% drawdown month, the account would be blown (no cost after eval fee refunded) and I simply move to the next backup account to start fresh the next month.
3. @ MFF the profit difference using higher risk on 200K completely blows the doors off responsible risk on 400K, 6 figure payouts enter the picture.

Drawbacks....
1. Scaling plan becomes impossible since I would constantly lose accounts, however with higher profits I can scale my private account even faster
2. I will need to continuously take challenges to replenish backup accounts.

What do you guys think?
  • #8,380
  • Jun 5, 2022 4:19pm Jun 5, 2022 4:19pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} That is what I was pointing out earlier. FTMO, TFF, MFF although scaling is only 25-30% every 3-4 months, it is INDEPENDENT of withdrawals. You get your split and scale as well. I was almost sold on the 8% to scale 70% as well, cannot believe we both missed that 8% is TRULY 80% if you were to duplicate on your own. So at that point, they are asking for 80, 90, 100% to scale you 70%.....kinda like the 5%ers where they ask for 250% to scale you 200%. OK, back to TFF,MFF,FTMO and E8.
I have just calculated the difference from the scaling offer of Finotive Funding versus own compounding on your own broker account of your choice in an Excel sheet for myself. For every 8%, 9%, 10%, 11% you need to do for a 200k account to get the next scaling step, they increase your profit split by 5% and then you get in addition 7% more DD in absolute terms. This is with Euler figure when you compound yourself on your own broker, you get ca. 3.2 times here more than what you get from FF!
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