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  • #8,181
  • Edited 6:28am May 26, 2022 5:02am | Edited 6:28am
Prop Firms Challenges decrypted

The Expectancy Score which is the multiple value of paid fee I have calculated on all props with discount codes I know in the following table sheet below. Enjoy.
Trading conditions like spreads and any hidden rules and customer service are not considered in the objective Score, because they depend more on your trading style.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Prop Rank.gif Size: 24 KB
  • #8,182
  • Edited 7:21am May 26, 2022 5:53am | Edited 7:21am
Quoting TrAndy1
The Expectancy Score which is the multiple value of paid fee I have calculated on all props with discount codes I know in the following table sheet below. Enjoy. Trading conditions like spreads and any hidden rules and customer service are not considered in the objective Score, because they depend more on your trading style. {image}
Comment: I used the following formular for calculating the Expectancy Score.

Expectancy = ((Max. Drawdown on a given challenge account)*(profit split percentage)) / ((Euler^((% Profit goal) / ((-) max. allowed Drawdown)))*(challenge fee))

Btw, FTUK, DigitalPit, SurgeTraders, and the 5%ers have negative Scores because they are below 1, that means you pay more for the fee than what you can expect to get from those props. On E8 it really depends on your trust on your abilities to get up 6 payouts after being funded. Otherwise ex ante the score is only 3.5 which is still a bit better than FTMO, because of the lower fee and available 8% discount code. Blue Guardian does not allow copy trading, you cannot even use your same strategy on multiple accounts. So really only 1 account can be opened and then you still have to fear that anyone else is entering or exit on the same levels and instrument as you to be flagged by them and cannot go funded or fail at once. That is very strange what they do. The Funded Trader uses 8cap as broker, spreads are good, but they publish even names and trades for everyone. Also FT+ and Fundnext have some strange hidden rules I do not comment more here. So for me there is only E8, TFF, FTMO and MFF left. TFT maybe. MFF has such a bad customer service but their offer is good and spreads are also good. I cannot comment about slippage here when you enter 5 lots at once on MFF, then maybe spreads + slippage can be different story and TFT gets more interesting. But of course everyone else is invited to make his own thoughts about this ranking list on prop firms. The Score itself is objective and based on Euler (which means reinvesting profits as proxy for challenges at your broker).
  • #8,183
  • May 26, 2022 7:21am May 26, 2022 7:21am
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Comment: I used the following formular for calculating the Expectancy Score. Expectancy = ((Max. Drawdown on a given challenge account) * (profit split percentage)) / (Euler^((% Profit goal) / ((-) max. allowed Drawdown))*(challenge fee)) Btw, FTUK, DigitalPit, SurgeTraders, and the 5%ers have negative Scores because they are below 1, that means you pay more for the fee than what you can expect to get from those props. On E8 it really depends on your trust on your abilities to get up 6 payouts after being funded. Otherwise ex ante the score...
I've been trading with props for 2 years. FTMO first, then MFF. Trying out TFF now. When I started FTMO was really the only challenge type model, if starting today, would not be my first option. I completely agree, only 4 viable options are MFF, TFF, FTMO and E8. They all share my #1 rule of having their own server. In addition, trading conditions are excellent and we know from first hand experiences in this thread all 4 pay.
  • #8,184
  • May 26, 2022 8:52am May 26, 2022 8:52am
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Comment: I used the following formular for calculating the Expectancy Score. Expectancy = ((Max. Drawdown on a given challenge account)*(profit split percentage)) / ((Euler^((% Profit goal) / ((-) max. allowed Drawdown)))*(challenge fee)) Btw, FTUK, DigitalPit, SurgeTraders, and the 5%ers have negative Scores because they are below 1, that means you pay more for the fee than what you can expect to get from those props. On E8 it really depends on your trust on your abilities to get up 6 payouts after being funded. Otherwise ex ante the score...
You could add in a second table or extra column that ranks the firm's based on whether or not funded status is achieved or more importantly if the price to play has been refunded.

Often it's the hidden rules that can make it or break it for a trader but I think it's reasonable here to conduct an analysis by disregarding such rules.

I think a better approach might be to conduct another analysis by applying 'realistic' weightings to important additional factors such as:

a) firm payout history;

b) firm time in business;and

c) firm customer service.

Just to name a few.

Ofcourse this list could go on and on but one critical factor here is certainly how well the firm rates in terms of paying traders.

Without 'proof' of payment or poor payout history to traders then such a firm might not even be worth considering even if it's rank by missing such key factors is high.

If the firm doesn't pay then it's of no value whatsoever to the trader.

I think having E8 at the top of the list is debatable.

Nice contribution by the way, I dig charts and tables.

Masterrmind .............
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #8,185
  • May 26, 2022 9:46am May 26, 2022 9:46am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} I've been trading with props for 2 years. FTMO first, then MFF. Trying out TFF now. When I started FTMO was really the only challenge type model, if starting today, would not be my first option. I completely agree, only 4 viable options are MFF, TFF, FTMO and E8. They all share my #1 rule of having their own server. In addition, trading conditions are excellent and we know from first hand experiences in this thread all 4 pay.
What about TheFundedTrader and Fundednext? Both pay and their trading conditions are good (Purple broker afa TFT is concerned). In fact Fundednext have better spreads on Indices/Gold.

I would not go with TFT though because they don't accept EA's. IMHO manual trading is going to catch one out eventually (breaking the DDD rule) unless of course one is happy to trade indefinitely with very small leverage
  • #8,186
  • May 26, 2022 10:34am May 26, 2022 10:34am
After a few days and much back and forth, rewording the same question over and over again, I was finally able to get a reasonable response from True Forex Funds regarding scalping and short position times:

Quote
ME: Last year, you were not able to copy trades and prohibited traders from taking trades under 30 seconds. Is this still the case now that you have your own server?
Quote
TFF: On our new server, you can trade as you wish. You can hold positions as long as you wish. We don't have these trading rules anymore.

Let's hope that this is true and that they keep their word. Just thought some of you might like to know.
  • #8,187
  • May 26, 2022 11:25am May 26, 2022 11:25am
Quoting Masterrmind
I think a better approach might be to conduct another analysis by applying 'realistic' weightings to important additional factors such as
-Yes. There are a lot of criteria that can be compiled. Some firms have very strange and/or inconvenient rules that are enough to kill my interest.

A few possible data points, in no specific order of importance:

  1. Date established?
  2. Location and business license available?
  3. Timely, capable/intelligent, friendly, foreign-language etc. support?
  4. Channels of access available for support (chat, email, discord, telegram, social media etc.)?
  5. Account(s) processing times?
  6. Withdrawal options?
  7. Payment options?
  8. Discounts available?
  9. Spreads?
  10. Commissions?
  11. Liquidity/slippage?
  12. Execution times?
  13. Broker(s) used?
  14. Own server?
  15. EA's allowed?
  16. Copy-trading allowed (what kind and/or any restrictions)?
  17. Max capital allotment per person/strategy?
  18. Max size per account?
  19. Max number of accounts per person/strategy?
  20. Can accounts be merged?
  21. Account sizes offered?
  22. Instruments offered?
  23. News trading allowed?
  24. Holding overnight/weekend trades allowed?
  25. Leverage offered?
  26. Account types offered?
  27. Any prohibited strategies?
  28. Stop-loss required?
  29. Have a daily or trailing stop-loss?
  30. Lot size or position limits?
  31. Any oddball or hidden rules?
  32. One-time fee, subscription-based?
  33. Refundable challenge fee?
  34. Website score (English, grammar, professional layout etc.)?
  35. Online reviews or complaints score?
  36. Dashboard and metrics available?
  37. Account manager offered?
  38. Trading platforms offered (MT4, MT5, Trading View, cTrader, mobile)?
  39. Server location?
  40. Prohibited countries?
  41. KYC and proof-of-address requirements?
  42. Swap-free accounts offered?
  43. Scaling offered (how is it structured; limits and processes etc.)?
  44. Islamic accounts offered?
  45. Affiliate program available?
  46. Direct funding offered?
  47. Evaluation types offered (1-step, 2-step etc.)?
  48. Minimum trading days rule for evaluation accounts?
  49. Maximum trading days rule for evaluation accounts?
  50. Minimum trading days rule for funded accounts?
  51. Withdrawal processing times?
  52. When/how soon and how often can withdrawals be made?
  53. Any minimum withdrawal size or other requirements?
  54. Free trials offered (any limitations)?
  55. Free/paid retakes offered?
  56. Free/paid extensions offered?
  57. Crypto trading offered (what about weekends)?
  58. Scalper-friendly (sub 30-second positions okay)?


et. al

  • #8,188
  • Edited 1:15pm May 26, 2022 11:55am | Edited 1:15pm
Here is another Ranking table as sheet. Tried to be objective as possible. Trustpilot ranks speaks for itself, whenever you cannot rely solely and totally. Actual total payout numbers are quite difficult to get from some props, they seem to make a big secret here, I do not understand, because it is one of the most important aspects. On Server I also put in spreads, the best spreads with their own server have now FTMO and TFF. MFF and E8 comes second but close after them. Others are welcomed to contribute also other aspects and put them in a kind of ranking table. The following criterias are kind of obective that is why I put them together in this table here.

Known public information put together here
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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  • #8,189
  • May 26, 2022 12:17pm May 26, 2022 12:17pm
Quoting Mtinifx
{quote} What about TheFundedTrader and Fundednext? Both pay and their trading conditions are good (Purple broker afa TFT is concerned). In fact Fundednext have better spreads on Indices/Gold. I would not go with TFT though because they don't accept EA's. IMHO manual trading is going to catch one out eventually (breaking the DDD rule) unless of course one is happy to trade indefinitely with very small leverage
I am 100% manual trader. So that rule does not affect me. The reason I seek out more funding is EXACTLY FOR THE REASON OF TRADING INDEFINITELY WITH SMALL LEVERAGE. 1:1 or 2:1 leverage on 2 million is $200-400 per pip.
  • #8,190
  • May 26, 2022 12:40pm May 26, 2022 12:40pm
Quoting Mtinifx
I would not go with TFT though because they don't accept EA's.
-Yes, The Funded Trader has some inconvenient rules that some traders may need to be aware of:

  1. Lot size limits
  2. News trading restrictions (even for indices)
  3. No EA's (not even for risk management/stop-loss)
  4. Permanent ban if challenge is failed on day one
  5. Copy trading is only allowed if TFT is the master account, and, no trade copying can occur across your multiple TFT accounts

It would not be too difficult to work around these, but the added inconveniences may not be applicable with other firms. Honestly, for me, the only real benefit that TFT offers is the larger, 400K account size with the 24K daily draw-down allowance because it would make for a good 'fun/high-risk' account.

  • #8,191
  • May 26, 2022 3:13pm May 26, 2022 3:13pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Yes. There are a lot of criteria that can be compiled. Some firms have very strange and/or inconvenient rules that are enough to kill my interest. A few possible data points, in no specific order of importance: Date established? Location and business license available? Timely, capable/intelligent, friendly, foreign-language etc. support? Channels of access available for support (chat, email, discord, telegram, social media etc.)? Account(s) processing times? Withdrawal options? Payment options? Discounts available? Spreads? Commissions?...
I got answers from Toptiertrader. See below what they answered for your questions I sent them to their support. They have been super fast. Their Score is 3.2.

Hello,
Date established? Back in Oct 2021
Location and business license available? Our Address@ 8 The Green, Dover, DE 19901
Timely, capable/intelligent, friendly, foreign-language etc. support? Yes, we provide 24/7 support
Channels of access available for support (chat, email, discord, telegram, social media etc.)? Chat/Email/Discord
Account(s) processing times? From Tier 1 to Tier 2 is 36 hours and from Tier 2 to Funded is about 5 days.
Withdrawal options? Crypto & Transfer Wise
Payment options? Crypto/Credit/Debir Card
Discounts available? Yes, 15% discount if you pay via crypto
Spreads?
Commissions? $5/Lot
Liquidity/slippage?
Execution times?
Broker(s) used? Vital Market
Own server? Vital Market Demo
EA's allowed? Nope
Copy-trading allowed (what kind and/or any restrictions)? Nope, not allowed
Max capital allotment per person/strategy? 600K
Max size per account? 600K
Max number of accounts per person/strategy? No limit but max capital is 600K
Can accounts be merged? Yes, after becoming funded
Account sizes offered? 25K, 50K, 100K, 200K
Instruments offered? Forex currency, crypto, metal, indicies
News trading allowed? Yes
Holding overnight/weekend trades allowed? Yes
Leverage offered?
Account types offered? Demo
Any prohibited strategies? Nope
Stop-loss required? Nope
Have a daily or trailing stop-loss? 5% of starting balance
Lot size or position limits? Nope
Any oddball or hidden rules? Nope
One-time fee, subscription-based? One time fee
Refundable challenge fee? Yes
Website score (English, grammar, professional layout etc.)?
Online reviews or complaints score?
Dashboard and metrics available? Yes
Account manager offered?
Trading platforms offered (MT4, MT5, Trading View, cTrader, mobile)? MT4
Server location?
Prohibited countries? None
KYC and proof-of-address requirements? Yes
Swap-free accounts offered? Nope
Scaling offered (how is it structured; limits and processes etc.)? Yes
Islamic accounts offered? Nope
Affiliate program available? Yes
Direct funding offered? Nope
Evaluation types offered (1-step, 2-step etc.)? 2
Minimum trading days rule for evaluation accounts? 7
Maximum trading days rule for evaluation accounts? 7
Minimum trading days rule for funded accounts? Nope
Withdrawal processing times? 36-48 Hours
When/how soon and how often can withdrawals be made? First payout is 30 days and then its biweekly
Any minimum withdrawal size or other requirements? $100
Free trials offered (any limitations)? Nope
Free/paid retakes offered? Yes, 1 retry if you are in profit
Free/paid extensions offered? Yes
Crypto trading offered (what about weekends)? Yes
Scalper-friendly (sub 30-second positions okay)? Yes

Waqar from TopTier Trader
  • #8,192
  • May 26, 2022 3:14pm May 26, 2022 3:14pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} I am 100% manual trader. So that rule does not affect me. The reason I seek out more funding is EXACTLY FOR THE REASON OF TRADING INDEFINITELY WITH SMALL LEVERAGE. 1:1 or 2:1 leverage on 2 million is $200-400 per pip.
You're definitely in the 1% bracket mate. Kudos to you
  • #8,193
  • May 26, 2022 3:31pm May 26, 2022 3:31pm
I got the this message from Blue Guardian Support about spreads and commissions.

'Hello, our commission is $7 per round lot. Trades bellow 1 minute would usually come under a tick scaling strategy so we would suggest not to use it.'
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: BlueG_Spreads.jpg Size: 166 KB
  • #8,194
  • May 26, 2022 3:33pm May 26, 2022 3:33pm
Quoting Mtinifx
{quote} You're definitely in the 1% bracket mate. Kudos to you
Definitely not 1%. I just believe if automation worked, we would all be rich. Chart time, chart time, chart time.......thousands of hours of it. IMO, there is no way around it. Trading is just like anything else....if you want to be at the top, you need to work your ass off. As far as the leverage, to me that is the entire point of prop firms, to use WAY LESS RISK because you are trading much larger equity. Even on a single 100K account, 1:1 leverage is $10/pip, 2:1 is $20/pip. 20 pips per day makes you 50-100K annually. This is on one single 100K account. How anyone loses $5k in a day is beyond my comprehension. Now I am doing a 10K with TFF with this high risk pass in 1 trade approach. Passed phase 1 in a day, phase 2, I just recovered back to even today (3 days in).
  • #8,195
  • May 26, 2022 3:59pm May 26, 2022 3:59pm
Quoting TrAndy1
I got answers from Toptiertrader.
-Haha. He answered nearly all of them. The maximum trading days rule for evaluation accounts should be 30 and 60, I believe, instead of 7. If I recall, youtuber Cue Banks is behind TTT. When I first looked into them, I was not overly impressed as it was just another cookie-cutter offering. However, if they allow a 600K merged account, that is kind of interesting to know. Thanks for sharing.

Quoting TrAndy1
Trades bellow 1 minute would usually come under a tick scaling strategy so we would suggest not to use it.
-Anyone that scalps on the one-minute chart knows that this is nonsense. You do not need to be tick scalping to have an open trade last fewer than 60 seconds. Another firm for me to avoid. Thanks for sharing.

Quoting pipmaster77
Chart time, chart time, chart time.......thousands of hours of it.
-Yes. The amount of time that I spent studying the charts and demo trading would equate to a university degree. But the profit potential is incomparable to anything that a degree-based job would get me, and the freedom and lifestyle that it affords is difficult to match.
  • #8,196
  • May 26, 2022 4:12pm May 26, 2022 4:12pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-. {quote}-Anyone that scalps on the one-minute chart knows that this is nonsense. You do not need to be tick scalping to have an open trade last fewer than 60 seconds. Another firm for me to avoid. Thanks for sharing.

I am not even close to being a scalper, but there are times I enter a trade on DOW or NAS and I am grabbing 150-200 points in under a minute. So with that firm, I should be punished because the market moved fast? Yeah, no thanks

{quote}-Yes. The amount of time that I spent studying the charts and demo trading would equate...
Completely agree. I tell folks this. I have people say teach me and I tell them I can show them the system I use. Yes, it is high probability, however, there are times price just blows through levels. If I were automated or didn't have the hours of chart time to recognize certain things, there would be a lot more ,losing trades. Trading IS NOT, if this....than do this, if that...than do that. There is so much more involved. Once again, if it was simple, everyone would be successful.
  • #8,197
  • May 26, 2022 5:05pm May 26, 2022 5:05pm
As a trader, one of the best skills to learn early on is how to quickly adapt to the changes in the market, this is especially true for scalpers. Automated systems need human involvement. Maybe there are existing systems that are based on high-level AI, advanced computer hardware with unimaginable processing speeds, execution and ping times etc.., but most traders are not going to have access to that sort of thing.

Not to say that automated systems cannot run unchecked and still be successful, especially those that are programmed to run during very specific time slots. However, how long will that success last before you need to intervene? And if someone has a really good EA, how likely are they to share it with the world?

I am perfectly okay with manual trading. I can finish my trading in under 2 minutes on some days. It is not truly passive... however... I can reinvest my profits into passive investment vehicles while still being able to pay for my living expenses and also save money. I can also quickly and easily adapt to changing markets without needing to pay expensive reprogramming costs etc.. Even if AI eventually dominates all markets, I will still be able to earn as a manual trader so long as there is enough volatility.

Nothing against EA's, personally; just not my preference.
  • #8,198
  • May 26, 2022 7:15pm May 26, 2022 7:15pm
Quoting TrAndy1
Here is another Ranking table as sheet. Tried to be objective as possible. Trustpilot ranks speaks for itself, whenever you cannot rely solely and totally. Actual total payout numbers are quite difficult to get from some props, they seem to make a big secret here, I do not understand, because it is one of the most important aspects. On Server I also put in spreads, the best spreads with their own server have now FTMO and TFF. MFF and E8 comes second but close after them. Others are welcomed to contribute also other aspects and put them in a kind...
Bravo.

Masterrmind ...........
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #8,199
  • May 27, 2022 2:58am May 27, 2022 2:58am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Definitely not 1%. I just believe if automation worked, we would all be rich. Chart time, chart time, chart time.......thousands of hours of it. IMO, there is no way around it. Trading is just like anything else....if you want to be at the top, you need to work your ass off. As far as the leverage, to me that is the entire point of prop firms, to use WAY LESS RISK because you are trading much larger equity. Even on a single 100K account, 1:1 leverage is $10/pip, 2:1 is $20/pip. 20 pips per day makes you 50-100K annually. This is on one single...
First you tell us you're a very careful trader using very low leverage then you tell us you've passed a Phase 1 challenge in one day! Oh boy

Totally disagree that automation doesn't work. Using automation to control risk DOES work.
  • #8,200
  • May 27, 2022 3:03am May 27, 2022 3:03am
These are the answers to the questions I got from the support of FundedTradingPlus. One can compare them with the answers of TopTierTrader.


Date established?

December 2020 (trading education since 2013)
Location and business license available?

UK – see companies’ house

Timely, capable/intelligent, friendly, foreign-language etc. support?

I think so, and our TrustPilot suggests this is what users experience. We’d use Google translate

Channels of access available for support (chat, email, discord, telegram, social media etc.)?

Live chat, email Discord.

Account(s) processing times?

Within 48 hours, 95% under 24 hours.

Withdrawal options?

PayPal, Bank and Crypto

Payment options?

As above.

Discounts available?

VVS for 5% off Exp and Adv.

Spreads?

https://www.eightcap.com/en/trading/...tions/spreads/

Commissions?

As above for FX only.

Liquidity/slippage?

Subject to real market conditions which are simulated across the entire program (except where live where people are in the real market).

Execution times?

As above.

Broker(s) used?

EightCap

Own server?

As above.

EAs allowed?

Yes if not abusive e.g. arbitrage / taking advantage of demo lag.

Copy-trading allowed (what kind and/or any restrictions)?

On one account from an external source.

Max capital allotment per person/strategy?

200k per strategy / person.

Max size per account?

200k.

Max number of accounts per person/strategy?

Up to 200k exp, 100k adv, unlimited master

Can accounts be merged?

No

Account sizes offered?

12.5k to 200k.

Instruments offered?

https://www.fundedtradingplus.com/available-markets/

News trading allowed?

Yes.

Holding overnight/weekend trades allowed?

Yes on exp

Leverage offered?
Up to 1/30

Account types offered?

https://www.fundedtradingplus.com/ex...rader-program/
https://www.fundedtradingplus.com/th...rader-program/
https://www.fundedtradingplus.com/ma...rader-program/

Any prohibited strategies?

Any legit strategy that can be performed on a real account that doesn’t breach broker T&Cs is fine.

Stop-loss required?

Only on: https://www.fundedtradingplus.com/th...rader-program/

Have a daily or trailing stop-loss?

Static daily, trailing overall which becomes static at starting balance.

Lot size or position limits?

Only subject to leverage limitations.

Any oddball or hidden rules?

No.

One-time fee, subscription-based?

One time.

Refundable challenge fee?

At 10%profit on live account.

Website score (English, grammar, professional layout etc.)?

Not sure how you’d want this measured.

Online reviews or complaints score?

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/fundedtradingplus.com

Dashboard and metrics available?

Yes.

Account manager offered?
No.

Trading platforms offered (MT4, MT5, Trading View, cTrader, mobile)?

MT4 and 5 – TV coming soon.

Server location?

DCs around the world, LP / bridge etc in Toyko.

Prohibited countries?

None.

KYC and proof-of-address requirements?

Via Deel. Can work outside of Deel if needed.

Swap-free accounts offered?

No as they’re our accounts (advice taken).

Scaling offered (how is it structured; limits and processes etc.)?

https://www.fundedtradingplus.com/fu...aling-program/

Islamic accounts offered?

As above for swap free.

Affiliate program available?

https://www.fundedtradingplus.com/affiliates/

Direct funding offered?

https://www.fundedtradingplus.com/ma...rader-program/

Evaluation types offered (1-step, 2-step etc.)?

1 step, 2 step and direct

Minimum trading days rule for evaluation accounts?

No minimum.

Maximum trading days rule for evaluation accounts?

No maximum.

Minimum trading days rule for funded accounts?

None.

Withdrawal processing times?

48 hours 95% done within 24.

When/how soon and how often can withdrawals be made?

As soon as $50 is made – can be day one. Then once per week.

Any minimum withdrawal size or other requirements?

As above.

Free trials offered (any limitations)?

No.

Free/paid retakes offered?

No.

Free/paid extensions offered?

No.

Crypto trading offered (what about weekends)?

Yes 24/7.

Scalper-friendly (sub 30-second positions okay)?

Yes, as long as not abusive / arbitrage etc.


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