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  • #3,901
  • Sep 18, 2021 11:29am Sep 18, 2021 11:29am
Quoting karun
This was from one of the post in FT Discord posted by Wade. "Ask any other firm to provide their broker license - or just go online and check if they are a registered broker. If not then you have your answer. And copying to a Live Account doesn't excuse a company from needing a broker license. That would be one heck of a loophole" If what he says is true, then neither FTMO or MFF or any Prop firm claiming to copy trades cannot operate without a broker license. Both FTMO and MFF have stated that they are not brokers. It is kind of getting more and...
These companies hide behind claims of providing training and education, not brokerage services.
Is it fraud? I do not think so.
Is it the calculated risk of pretending to be an educational company? For sure.
IMO these companies would be classified more likely as a game of chance providers rather than brokers.
If one who makes money with them also makes a fair tax statement every year, who cares?
  • #3,902
  • Sep 18, 2021 11:31am Sep 18, 2021 11:31am
Quoting karun
This was from one of the post in FT Discord posted by Wade. "Ask any other firm to provide their broker license - or just go online and check if they are a registered broker. If not then you have your answer. And copying to a Live Account doesn't excuse a company from needing a broker license. That would be one heck of a loophole" If what he says is true, then neither FTMO or MFF or any Prop firm claiming to copy trades cannot operate without a broker license. Both FTMO and MFF have stated that they are not brokers. It is kind of getting more and...
Simply, Funding Talent deflecting. MFF and FTMO know what they are doing, you can tell by the verbiage on their websites and in their contracts. Funding Talent does not have the expertise or resources to become an MFF or an FTMO and it makes Jessica mad, REAL mad, so they kind of make shit up as they go.
  • #3,903
  • Edited 12:12pm Sep 18, 2021 11:55am | Edited 12:12pm
Quoting karun
This was from one of the post in FT Discord posted by Wade. "Ask any other firm to provide their broker license - or just go online and check if they are a registered broker. If not then you have your answer. And copying to a Live Account doesn't excuse a company from needing a broker license. That would be one heck of a loophole" If what he says is true, then neither FTMO or MFF or any Prop firm claiming to copy trades cannot operate without a broker license. Both FTMO and MFF have stated that they are not brokers. It is kind of getting more and...

cute... I have mostly got experience with ASIC and FCA in a compliance capacity but logically I can tell you that this is factually bullshit.
You only need to have a brokerage license unless you are accepting deposits on clients behalf.. Which none of these companies are.

Some programs could be potentially seen as deposits if they were promised to be held in custodian but they are not. Its slightly grey area, but Wade is absolutely full of dogshit, must have learned from Jessica.

Further to that I already got legal advice on potentially opening a prop firm in EU and they too agree with my above assessment and the EU right now is one of the most painful regulators in the world.


Decided to edit for informations sake:

There are a few key points that regulators look at for whether or not someone needs a license.

1) Whether or not you will be holding client funds
2) Whether or not you will be providing financial advice
3) Whether or not you are performing actions on behalf of someone else and have the knowledge to do so

Having a brokerage license in a prop firm instance is only beneficial if you are looking to get exchange memberships or are acting on behalf of a customer i.e you are not STPing their orders. But those orders are not attached to a 'customer named' deposit so the funds do not belong to the customer and the customer has no rights to those funds. A prop firm is essentially setting up a platform for them to trade themselves, which requires no license.

The prop firms are not providing financial advice. Technically they are seeking it.. So you can scratch that one.

They also aren't performing actions on behalf of someone else.

If they are making a market they probably do require a brokerage license. But that means that any prop firm running a casino model needs a license i.e FT. As they are making a market. My understanding from MFF that is probably the reason they are STPing all and then dealing on another proprietary account instead of just outright warehousing orders. From a legal standpoint that makes way more sense than to just book everything and be subject to either gaming licence laws or financial regulator laws.

Ultimately though, the grey area that prop firms operate in is grey enough that until the regulator gets loads of complaints nothing will happen.

But I will re-iterate that "Wade" is talking out his ass.

Also, don't take compliance advice from a "VP OF MARKETING"
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  • #3,904
  • Sep 18, 2021 12:24pm Sep 18, 2021 12:24pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Yes, if you go back to when I took my first challenge, it's like 15 months with FTMO, never a personal interaction with anyone, while within my first two weeks with MFF, still doing an eval at that point, I'm having conversations with Josh, so yes, definitely a more human touch.
I don't have an experience with MFF (as they still don't offer cTrader after 6 months of promissing) but I consider no personal interaction (unless I request it) a benefit rather than a drawback. The last thing I want is the prop firm keep intervening all the time about why I did this or that and why i lost 1% a day. Or having to approach someone personally to check for me something which should be automated and available online. (EnFoid is an expert in this and it is incredibly annoying.)

For me, FTMO is the undisputed market leader. Compared with MFF (their only real competitor) they now provide better profit split, better DD conditions (balance to equity), better dashboard, bi-weekly payouts, much longer history, and a far superior trading platform (while still supporting both MT versions to please the more conservative traders).
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #3,905
  • Sep 18, 2021 12:31pm Sep 18, 2021 12:31pm
Quoting Vitore
{quote} I don't have an experience with MFF (as they still don't offer cTrader after 6 months of promissing) but I consider no personal interaction (unless I request it) a benefit rather than a drawback. The last thing I want is the prop firm keep intervening all the time about why I did this or that and why i lost 1% a day. Or having to approach someone personally to check for me something which should be automated and available online. (EnFoid is an expert in this and it is incredibly annoying.) For me, FTMO is the undisputed market leader. Compared...

Yes I completely agree with you. Spreads and trading conditions on the indices like US30 (which many people prefer to trade) are much better.
  • #3,906
  • Sep 18, 2021 12:35pm Sep 18, 2021 12:35pm
Quoting Vitore
{quote} I don't have an experience with MFF (as they still don't offer cTrader after 6 months of promissing) but I consider no personal interaction (unless I request it) a benefit rather than a drawback. The last thing I want is the prop firm keep intervening all the time about why I did this or that and why i lost 1% a day. Or having to approach someone personally to check for me something which should be automated and available online. (EnFoid is an expert in this and it is incredibly annoying.) For me, FTMO is the undisputed market leader. Compared...

I don't think MFF contact people to hand hold their drawdowns. They are just there when you need them and its a person you talk to and have easy access to.

C-trader is a hunk of garbage, but its up to personal preference, its no worse than the two metatraders but it certainly is no better as well.

Did you know that all c-trader servers are hosted and controlled by spotware and comes with a default price feed that you have to edit yourself to bring it in line with liquidity? To actually program c-trader to a bridge and to get the liquidity moving accurately without execution delays is a mega pain in the ass, which is why most brokers don't offer it because their market share is so very small (less than 1%). Its expensive, they charge $1/lot on every trade warehoused or not plus a monthly minimum as well as a monthly maintenance fee. I can imagine a lot of slippage issues will come with STPing orders from c-trader to liquidity at least in the initial stages until you can figure out a way to get closer to spotwares servers without drastically increasing overhead.

This isn't to defend MFF specifically, but to use lack of c-trader probably means nothing to most people.

My defense of MFF is that they have said "It will take a very long time" since the get go with regards to C-trader around the end of May when I first started trading there.
  • #3,907
  • Sep 18, 2021 12:41pm Sep 18, 2021 12:41pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} cute... I have mostly got experience with ASIC and FCA in a compliance capacity but logically I can tell you that this is factually bullshit. You only need to have a brokerage license unless you are accepting deposits on clients behalf.. Which none of these companies are. Some programs could be potentially seen as deposits if they were promised to be held in custodian but they are not. Its slightly grey area, but Wade is absolutely full of dogshit, must have learned from Jessica. Further to that I already got legal advice on potentially...
It's just really going to piss me off, as I stated before, if one of these shady companies becomes the reason for regulation that will affect my livelihood. Everyone, just use the proven ones, if you don't give the shady ones any business, well, they will have no business. Therefore, no complaints, no regulators stepping in where it isn't necessary.
  • #3,908
  • Sep 18, 2021 12:50pm Sep 18, 2021 12:50pm
Quoting Vitore
{quote} I don't have an experience with MFF (as they still don't offer cTrader after 6 months of promissing) but I consider no personal interaction (unless I request it) a benefit rather than a drawback. The last thing I want is the prop firm keep intervening all the time about why I did this or that and why i lost 1% a day. Or having to approach someone personally to check for me something which should be automated and available online. (EnFoid is an expert in this and it is incredibly annoying.) For me, FTMO is the undisputed market leader. Compared...
I reached out to them with some unique questions which general support I knew wouldn't have the answer to(which I have encountered alot at FTMO), so I was just stating it was great to have a contact higher up in the company to reach out to. In doing so, I developed a relationship where sometimes it's just easier to message him than to go through the other channels. I agree, though, most things SHOULD be automated where you simply need less human interaction.
As far as comparisons, being funded by both, it's a close 1 and 2 to me, yes FTMO increased profit split is a win there, both now offer bi-weekly payout, however the initial fee vs DD offered still gives MFF the edge. Once funded, one should never even come close to the DD limits and fee is refunded, so at that point it's just a matter of trading conditions and I find both to be among the best I've ever used.
  • #3,909
  • Sep 18, 2021 1:00pm Sep 18, 2021 1:00pm
Quoting Koop
{quote} Lol the good life. So, full time trader? Nice!! Does anyone here still work a "main" 9-5 job or business? With trading on the side?
Yes I do Koop. I work for a fortune 20 company here in the US. But it's more like trading is the main business and my job is the side gig. It's easy, I work from home, charts are in front of me all day, I make 6 figures most years, but my main reason is I do not want to pay 5 times more for medical insurance. With all that being said, I've just about made the decision, end of this year I'll be giving up the side gig.
  • #3,910
  • Sep 18, 2021 1:26pm Sep 18, 2021 1:26pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} I don't think MFF contact people to hand hold their drawdowns. They are just there when you need them and its a person you talk to and have easy access to. C-trader is a hunk of garbage, but its up to personal preference, its no worse than the two metatraders but it certainly is no better as well. Did you know that all c-trader servers are hosted and controlled by spotware and comes with a default price feed that you have to edit yourself to bring it in line with liquidity? To actually program c-trader to a bridge and to get the liquidity...
I heard stories about MFF risk managers contacting traders when their style is not acirdi g to their liking but it was all a second hand info. I only know that from EnFoid. Good if MFF doesn't do that (anymore)

As for the cTrader I know about the servers and I always considered it a benefit as it prevents brokers from messing up with the price feed in their own favor (which many brokers used to do in the past). But I didnt know about the extra effort and cost which is related. I never really experienced any significant slippage even with not so small orders

Otherwise I can only compare them from the trader's point if view where cTrader seems to me miles ahead. I agree it is subjective and up to the personal preference but MT UIX always reminds me the antient times of Win95. I was never able to adjust it to my needs whereas in cTrader everything just looks right and easy to use. But I understand most traders never tried anything else so they're probably happy with MT and brokers are not pushed to change it
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #3,911
  • Edited 5:07pm Sep 18, 2021 1:57pm | Edited 5:07pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} C-trader is a hunk of garbage, but its up to personal preference, its no worse than the two metatraders but it certainly is no better as well. Did you know that all c-trader servers are hosted and controlled by spotware and comes with a default price feed that you have to edit yourself to bring it in line with liquidity? To actually program c-trader to a bridge and to get the liquidity moving accurately without execution delays is a mega pain in the ass, which is why most brokers don't offer it because their market share is so very small...
Who cares it's pain for a broker? It's their problem, not mine.
For manual traders, it maybe does not matter. However, algo traders like me do not have other reasonable options for how to skip UI (the platform) and connect directly to the server. I know only JForex and cTrader alow it. Metatrader is behind both of hundred light-years (and even MT5 with its Python capabilities). MQL is rather funny than a tool for serious algo trading. There is also FIX available but it's not usually for free (apart from FxPig offer) and has got its own limitations. Last but not least MT4/5 can be bypassed by mt4api library which is pretty expensive though. REST APIs (like e.g. Oanda's) is not an viable option for me.

If you have got some exp. with any other retail algo trading options from your brokerage carrier, I would be grateful if you can share them.
  • #3,912
  • Sep 18, 2021 2:16pm Sep 18, 2021 2:16pm
Quoting mcquak
{quote} Who cares it's pain for a broker? It's their problem, not mine. For manual traders, it maybe does not matter. However, algo traders like me do not have other cheap options for how to skip UI (the platform) and connect directly to the server. I know only JForex and cTrader alow it. Metatrader is behind both of hundred light-years (and even MT5 with its Python capabilities). MQL is rather funny than a tool for serious algo trading. There is also FIX available but it's not usually for free (apart from FxPig offer) and have got another limitation....
Exactly. Algo development that's a whole different world on its own where cTrader takes a lead. Not only the FIX API but also the C# used to code indicators and cbots makes the life of an algo developer much easier than with MQL. That was the primary reason why I chose cTrader many years ago (and in that time it was relatively new and far less capable than the current versions). But it's even less relevant for brokers as 99% of the retail traders are not able to code and only search for indicators or cbots to download for free so why would they care
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #3,913
  • Sep 18, 2021 2:22pm Sep 18, 2021 2:22pm
Quoting Vitore
{quote} I don't have an experience with MFF (as they still don't offer cTrader after 6 months of promissing) but I consider no personal interaction (unless I request it) a benefit rather than a drawback. The last thing I want is the prop firm keep intervening all the time about why I did this or that and why i lost 1% a day. Or having to approach someone personally to check for me something which should be automated and available online. (EnFoid is an expert in this and it is incredibly annoying.) For me, FTMO is the undisputed market leader. Compared...
Oh wow, finally, someone who tried Enfoid.
Did you get a chance to make it to pay out stage? How was the experience in general if you don't mind? (from challenge stage).
  • #3,914
  • Sep 18, 2021 2:34pm Sep 18, 2021 2:34pm
Quoting karun
This was from one of the post in FT Discord posted by Wade. "Ask any other firm to provide their broker license - or just go online and check if they are a registered broker. If not then you have your answer. And copying to a Live Account doesn't excuse a company from needing a broker license. That would be one heck of a loophole" If what he says is true, then neither FTMO or MFF or any Prop firm claiming to copy trades cannot operate without a broker license. Both FTMO and MFF have stated that they are not brokers. It is kind of getting more and...
Lol That's the most disgusting thing about these guys. Always trying to drag everyone else through the mud with them. It's pathetic.
They say this, yet they were denying payouts because "traders were trading outside of normal market conditions thus the company was unable to copy their trades to their Live funds"

Even I know a company doesn't need a brokers license to copy trades to their accounts domiciled with an actual broker.
  • #3,915
  • Sep 18, 2021 2:41pm Sep 18, 2021 2:41pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Yes I do Koop. I work for a fortune 20 company here in the US. But it's more like trading is the main business and my job is the side gig. It's easy, I work from home, charts are in front of me all day, I make 6 figures most years, but my main reason is I do not want to pay 5 times more for medical insurance. With all that being said, I've just about made the decision, end of this year I'll be giving up the side gig.
Oh, That sounds good. Wish you success following through with that decision. I'm not sure how easy it would be to give up on that Job security.
  • #3,916
  • Sep 18, 2021 3:06pm Sep 18, 2021 3:06pm
Quoting Koop
{quote} Oh wow, finally, someone who tried Enfoid. Did you get a chance to make it to pay out stage? How was the experience in general if you don't mind? (from challenge stage).
I passed evaluation and verification but just after I started trading the live account they announced the jurisdiction change and everything went south. They said it's a matter of few weeks and all could keep trading but when all tools showing your progress stopped working and two months passed without any visible progress and Mario stopped communicating at all I just gave up.

Initially I liked them a lot despite their high evaluation fee and low profit split. But I didn't like the way traders were treated on Discord. Any time someone experienced a DD (not breaking any rule) a bot was making it public to all other traders, besides that I was also approached via email to explain my trading style after one day with 2% DD. Once I was even warned publicly about an alleged big DD while actually being in profit on that day.

So I don't recommended them anymore
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #3,917
  • Sep 18, 2021 3:16pm Sep 18, 2021 3:16pm
Quoting Vitore
{quote} Any time someone experienced a DD (not breaking any rule) a bot was making it public to all other traders, besides that I was also approached via email to explain my trading style after one day with 2% DD. Once I was even warned publicly about an alleged big DD while actually being in profit on that day.
haha what a weird freaking company. Isn't that supposed to be private information? One they shouldn't be able to publicly share without your consent?
Their whole SwingFish discord channel always seemed pretty strange anyways.

Thanks for the info!!
  • #3,918
  • Sep 18, 2021 3:31pm Sep 18, 2021 3:31pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} cute... I have mostly got experience with ASIC and FCA in a compliance capacity but logically I can tell you that this is factually bullshit. You only need to have a brokerage license unless you are accepting deposits on clients behalf.. Which none of these companies are. Some programs could be potentially seen as deposits if they were promised to be held in custodian but they are not. Its slightly grey area, but Wade is absolutely full of dogshit, must have learned from Jessica. Further to that I already got legal advice on potentially...
Not to stir the pot here, I just wanted to understand the landscape. Wade's statement did not make any sense, but then I don't know all the regulations, I know just the basic definition and working of brokerage. Thanks for the information!

Thanks to others for their answers to my question!
  • #3,919
  • Sep 18, 2021 3:36pm Sep 18, 2021 3:36pm
Quoting Koop
{quote} Lol the good life. So, full time trader? Nice!! Does anyone here still work a "main" 9-5 job or business? With trading on the side?
I have a 9-5 full time job which is my primary source of income, with these prop firms showing up and turning my focus on indices and gold, hopefully one day trading will become a full time job!
  • #3,920
  • Sep 18, 2021 10:45pm Sep 18, 2021 10:45pm
Quoting Koop
{quote} Oh wow, finally, someone who tried Enfoid. Did you get a chance to make it to pay out stage? How was the experience in general if you don't mind? (from challenge stage).
Horne also stated in Post 3 that Enfoid was currently being traded in the verification stage.

Not too sure about the outcome.

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