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  • #9,701
  • Aug 5, 2022 9:20am Aug 5, 2022 9:20am
If anyone is using TFF can they check their trading agreement accessible through the dash: "2.9 The Customer may NOT PERFORM demo trades during significant macroeconomic events with STOP ORDERS."
Does this mean that market orders are ok? If so, why the distinction?
  • #9,702
  • Aug 5, 2022 9:37am Aug 5, 2022 9:37am
Quoting muir
If anyone is using TFF can they check their trading agreement accessible through the dash: "2.9 The Customer may NOT PERFORM demo trades during significant macroeconomic events with STOP ORDERS." Does this mean that market orders are ok? If so, why the distinction?
That is for news straddling as I know, that kind of strategy is not allowed. But having a stoploss is not something against 2.9. Of course with market orders you are fine.
  • #9,703
  • Aug 5, 2022 9:46am Aug 5, 2022 9:46am
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} That is for news straddling as I know, that kind of strategy is not allowed. But having a stoploss is not something against 2.9. Of course with market orders you are fine.
Oh, ok. But why would that bother them, it's a zero sum position?
  • #9,704
  • Aug 5, 2022 10:01am Aug 5, 2022 10:01am
Quoting TrAndy1
That is why looking at other solid prop firms is a good thing to diversify at least. With TFF I had a hard stop with another major FX and I only got 0.5 to 0.8 pips slippage and that at the same time when NFP data came out. So that feels like having no or minimal slippage with TrueForexFunds. I really appreciate their quoting. Here you go.

You can be sure with that low slippage during news, you are playing with someone who has no means of executing a trade. NFP liquidity is like 1k per ticket with gaps of 5-20 pips sometimes. Having no slippage on news events doesnt make a company good, it makes it foolish.
  • #9,705
  • Aug 5, 2022 10:03am Aug 5, 2022 10:03am
I think that now after what, the 15 yrs of FF's existance or however long it is, people should now know that NFP and slippage come hand in hand. It is doing every trader a disservice to complain about slippage during news and suggest that your complaint is a valid complaint. We should be promoting truthful market information, not fantasy land stuff.

There is a reason that FTMO doesn't allow news trading with leverage and various other firms have news rules. Its because there is no liquidity there and it leads to this silly public discussion about slippage.
  • #9,706
  • Aug 5, 2022 10:46am Aug 5, 2022 10:46am
I had a great experience with Finotive Funding. There are some BUTs, though, which I’ll describe as well. This may be long.

Credentials
Payment by card, no Paypal. Credential phase 1 immediate in the dashboard.
As soon as target is complete, we click a bottom in dashboard to go to phase 2.
As soon as we finish phase 2, again clicking the bottom to go to Funded and a link to sign agreement.
That’s done online and credentials for funded are immediately available, as sson as we sign. We can start funded trading right away.
Impossible to be better. They’re at MFF level in this aspect, if not better.

Payouts
I traded 5 days in a week (I think I needed 2 trading days).
Yesterday night I went to the dashboard and wrote the amount I wanted to withdraw (some time ago I had already selected Deel as payment option and inserted my email of Deel – it’s all in the dashboard).
Money was immediately deducted from the account and I could go on trading, if I wanted. No downtime which is excelent.
This morning I received the Deel link to sign contract, which I did immediately.
About 30 minutes after I was receiving the money in Deel.
This is astonishing. It was basically 12 hours since I requested the payout and receiving it in Deel. And no downtime.
Payouts are weekly which is also very good (2 trading days minimum).
A note worth to mention: I was in doubt if we started with 75% or 80%. It was 80% payout.

Fee refund
This is only done if the balance is higher than the starting point, after 30 days of funded status. So it's not like the other props that refund with the first payout.
T&C 8.7.3

Spreads, commissions and slippage
Normally (I will explain below) spreads are neither the best, nor the worse in EURUSD, AUDUSD and GBPUSD which is what I use mostly.
Commissions were zero in step 1 and 2. In funded it’s 4 USD / lot.
I haven’t noticed any slippage, either when clicking in icon price (I usually got the same that was there) or in SL/TP.
In fact my SL/TP and final price were always matching, both in challenges and in funded so far. So no slippage at all.
I trade usually not more than 5/6 lots in challenges and a bit less in funded.
Regarding slippage I was probably lucky because they have problems with their feeds, as I pointed out here and here. I noticed that more than once. Fortunately never caught me.


The Bad
I was flagged once for having EA (they sent me an email). I replied saying I have no idea how to use a EA or anything like that. In fact I enter all my orders manually. They replied promptly saying it was a mistake. Not happy for this but happened only once.

They have restrict rules as I pointed out here (3 opened positions in same pair, limit of DD in a single position, etc.). Not a problem for my style but worth to mention.
They demand always a stop loss in positions. In chat they said it’s in a reasonable period of time after starting the trade, whatever that means.
Anyway, I always enter it immediately or usually 5, 10, 15 minutes after.
They sent an email clarifying this. Apparently we may have here and there a trade without SL if this is not common practice.

Something I haven’t particularly appreciated is that they keep always the same MT4 account number.
After phase 1 they reset balance and after phase 2 they also reset. Meaning that funded account starts with all the history of Step 1 and Step 2.

The really bad
Finally, the worse rule.
After the first failed funded account the profit split reduces to 25% until you “pay back” the previous loss. Which means, IMO, that it would not justify to pursue another challenge after we fail one funded account.
This is in 8.7.2 of T&C

Conclusion
Overall, it was one of the best experiences I had with Props.
Credential processes are all automatic, even for funded, and payout was the simpler and faster, ever.
Their rules may be painful, although they don’t bother me.
A really pity that this is just a one off. If we have a bad strike and miss the funded account, there’s no point in trying again with the 25% payout rule.
  • #9,707
  • Aug 5, 2022 11:12am Aug 5, 2022 11:12am
Quoting Capablanca
The Bad I was flagged once for having EA (they sent me an email). I replied saying I have no idea how to use a EA or anything like that. In fact I enter all my orders manually. They replied promptly saying it was a mistake. Not happy for this but happened only once. They have restrict rules as I pointed out here (3 opened positions in same pair, limit of DD in a single position, etc.). Not a problem for my style but worth to mention. They...
Prop firms don't allow EAs? Why would they care if the EA is meeting their requirements.
  • #9,708
  • Edited 11:53am Aug 5, 2022 11:16am | Edited 11:53am
How Much Do Prop Firms Make ?
So MFF makes about $10 million to $20 million per year as net profit as it looks like from the numbers given here. Payouts stand for 80% of their total revenue. That means anything beyond a higher score of 10 should not be profitable anymore ?! See yourself here: https://creative-currency.org/how-mu...op-firms-make/
  • #9,709
  • Aug 5, 2022 11:25am Aug 5, 2022 11:25am
Quoting ohyeah
{quote} Prop firms don't allow EAs? Why would they care if the EA is meeting their requirements.
Some allow, some don't allow and some put restrictions like Finotive. If you're interested read 7.4
I don't care because I don't use them.
  • #9,710
  • Aug 5, 2022 1:22pm Aug 5, 2022 1:22pm
Quoting Takisd
I think that now after what, the 15 yrs of FF's existance or however long it is, people should now know that NFP and slippage come hand in hand. It is doing every trader a disservice to complain about slippage during news and suggest that your complaint is a valid complaint. We should be promoting truthful market information, not fantasy land stuff. There is a reason that FTMO doesn't allow news trading with leverage and various other firms have news rules. Its because there is no liquidity there and it leads to this silly public discussion about...
Agreed. The less real the prop firm appears to be, the less likely your orders are being copied anywhere. To not have slippage during NFP is about as fake conditions as you can get, it would be similar to no slippage during FOMC or other major bank announcements.
  • #9,711
  • Aug 5, 2022 1:22pm Aug 5, 2022 1:22pm
Quoting TrAndy1
How Much Do Prop Firms Make ? So MFF makes about $10 million to $20 million per year as net profit as it looks like from the numbers given here. Payouts stand for 80% of their total revenue. That means anything beyond a higher score of 10 should not be profitable anymore ?! See yourself here: https://creative-currency.org/how-mu...op-firms-make/

That dude plucked some pretty magic figures from the sky in that article and makes some pretty outlandish assumptions.

You can take it with a massive grain of salt.

Your scoring assumption I would say anyone with a higher score that MFF has no longevity without change. I suspect some wild trading conditions will appear in those at a higher scoring.

At the time I was considering starting a prop firm, doing anything more than MFF offers seemed to be a bit stupid, i actually think their phase bonuses are stupid as well from a business sense. Its a lot of money to be giving out but a good marketing tool, perhaps it pays for itself?

My original "Run for your life, scam scam" about fundednext was their bonus of 15%. Recovery of that money is unlikely and it leaves a lot of room for manipulation, which is why they have now changed it to being nullified almost completely via new rules.
  • #9,712
  • Aug 5, 2022 1:24pm Aug 5, 2022 1:24pm
Quoting Capablanca
I had a great experience with Finotive Funding. There are some BUTs, though, which I’ll describe as well. This may be long. Credentials Payment by card, no Paypal. Credential phase 1 immediate in the dashboard. As soon as target is complete, we click a bottom in dashboard to go to phase 2. As soon as we finish phase 2, again clicking the bottom to go to Funded and a link to sign agreement. That’s done online and credentials for funded are immediately available, as sson as we sign. We can start funded trading right away. Impossible to be better....

Good review. I used them, i cant say i had a bad experience but the firm just feels too tight for someone like me. If I decide to ramp up my funding I might try again with my experience in mind with them as a "extra capital beyond ftmo/mff". I see them being promoted a lot by scammers on instagram now too which is always a bit of a warning sign.
  • #9,713
  • Aug 5, 2022 1:56pm Aug 5, 2022 1:56pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} That dude plucked some pretty magic figures from the sky in that article and makes some pretty outlandish assumptions. Your scoring assumption I would say anyone with a higher score that MFF has no longevity without change. I suspect some wild trading conditions will appear in those at a higher scoring. At the time I was considering starting a prop firm, doing anything more than MFF offers seemed to be a bit stupid, i actually think their phase bonuses are stupid as well from a business sense.
If you really considered to start an own prop firm, well that explains a lot. But then you also confirm that any score higher than MFF was too difficult to beat, then it just confirms my view, that a score somewhat higher than MFF is the breakeven point of any profitability of any prop firm. So there is not much room for any improvement here. You just confirmed what I said but it in different words and indirectly. But why the hell you really wanted to start your own prop firm, could you tell us more here ?
  • #9,714
  • Aug 5, 2022 2:29pm Aug 5, 2022 2:29pm
After more 10 days of trading at MFF 50k funded account I will stop now until I get this payout end of next week. I hope it will be smooth without much waiting time.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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  • #9,715
  • Aug 5, 2022 2:34pm Aug 5, 2022 2:34pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} At the time I was considering starting a prop firm
What was your plan here ? Did you have a kind of business plan ? If yes, how did it look like ? Did you analyze competitors ? How about setup costs, is it not expensive to start an own prop firm or did you want to outsource everything ? Did you want to start as white label ? Did you want to partner with which broker and why ? Tell us.
And how did you want to capitalize it with outside investors, do you have connections to hedge funds or rich investors in this field ? How about hirings and servers ?
  • #9,716
  • Aug 5, 2022 3:36pm Aug 5, 2022 3:36pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} What was your plan here ? Did you have a kind of business plan ? If yes, how did it look like ? Did you analyze competitors ? How about setup costs, is it not expensive to start an own prop firm or did you want to outsource everything ? Did you want to start as white label ? Did you want to partner with which broker and why ? Tell us. And how did you want to capitalize it with outside investors, do you have connections to hedge funds or rich investors in this field ? How about hirings and servers ?

I don't need to partner with a broker, I have the connections for the server side myself. I would use an aggregator with tier 1's and promise them a yard a month (my own volume).

You dont need rich investors to be a prop fund owner, just a cigarette and a dream. The first few months is the easiest part of the business plan as you have about 20-30 days to gather capital from program purchases and then you can run an appropriate risk book.

My own business plan was more based on single currency risk vs pair risk as a means of hedging but based on the pass/fail rate I couldn't make it work. The thing that stopped me from doing it mostly is because I am used to STP set ups but this model is impossible to do so and I hate surprises. I believe most of the firms that are 1 yr or older have handled and dealt with the assholes who try to rob you if you offer better than market conditions. FTMO bans them, MFF bans them TFTP bans them e8 bans them so on so forth. The feed setups are various, the eightcap guys are on the wide end of the spectrum, FTMO being the tight end of the spectrum. You can run FTMO's feed ONLY if you dont allow news trading as its not even remotely close to liquidity. My feed would have been similar to MFF's with a bit more depth during the EU/UK session and probably less during ASIA (their CFD spreads during asia are unrealistic the market is way wider during those hours).

Marketing for me is easy, I have a db of over 1 million but since I had cancer I simply didnt have to energy to go forward and get back in the game. Instead I opted to consult (including recently for a few prop firms).

We will see a lot more firms pop up, as the fight for margin increases we will start to see some more shake, a few of them are already shaking. I am glad I am not in the position where I have to give a shit about the shaking.

Edit: To start a prop firm its like 15k upfront cost. You wouldn't need any staff for a month or two and then would just scale according to need. The staff for these firms do not earn massive amounts its not like they are fancy city executives, although a lot of them I respect a lot.
  • #9,717
  • Edited 4:47pm Aug 5, 2022 4:35pm | Edited 4:47pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} a yard a month (my own volume)...I have a db of over 1 million ...Instead I opted to consult (including recently for a few prop firms). .
So you are a scalper with trading volume at a yard per month or how do you do so much volume ? Otherwise if your net worth is already that big then any prop firm with more capital does not help you really or ? If you have a database of a million potential customers then this prop firm thing might be not off from the table when you have regained your energy ? And last, could you say which prop firms you do consult (if not possible for disclosure, could you specify a little bit ?) and what do you tell them ? What are your insights from the problems the prop firms have over the time ? Do they really seek for consulting or are you active from your side and ask ? I mean, if you do consulting for a few prop firms, then you have first hand information about insights from the prop firms, who no one has here. Could you tell us more here, without being specific not telling us the firm name of course, when you speak about internals here ? You could shed some light here how the prop thing is working. There is one more sentence from you that really gives me to think of. Why do you say that there is no investor money behind required for a prop firm ? Do not get it.
  • #9,718
  • Aug 5, 2022 4:52pm Aug 5, 2022 4:52pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} So you are a scalper with trading volume at a yard per month or how do you do so much volume ? Otherwise if your net worth is already that big then any prop firm with more capital does not help you really or ? If you have a database of a million potential customers then this prop firm thing might be not off from the table when you have regained your energy ? And last, could you say which prop firms you do consult (if not possible for disclosure, could you specify a little bit ?) and what do you tell them ? What are your insights from the...


Most prop firms right now are looking for people to help with price feeds and flushing out the cheaters. Its something that I do well, but probably you and most retail traders hate. Providing a true market condition basically makes retail traders uncomfortable because they experience slippage and execution speed delays, a lot of it is due to metatraders short comings but also just lack of knowledge. For example, a user complaining about 10 pips of slippage during NFP, thats not the providers issue its the users issue as they do not understand the market dynamics. FTMO has a fail safe in their rules, being the news trading. Not only do you lose your account if you trade during the news but even if your SL or TP hits you lose the account unless on their swing account. They have the smaller slippage as well (I experience them). The major complaint about slippage for any prop firm who experiences it is always around news time. If you eliminate news time, I think no one would have any realistic complaint.
My other specialty is hedging strategy, two firms I have consulted with thought that making a bot to trade 100% opposite the traders would be profitable, but due to execution cost its not. Things don't work that simply. You would think that it would work given that prop firms on average lose 1% of their entire live account equity PER DAY if they A book it all, but due to the excessive lot sizes and magic trading conditions the reverse strategies don't work, and it has nothing to do with prop traders being profitable, as much as we would like to think that it was.

There are a lot of companies with better than market conditions bucketing orders. I don't find it alarming per se, but if I was to bet on who goes out in flames first, it would be them. If you are going to b-book, its always best to be as close to market conditions as possible, like IC Markets or tickmill. They aren't offloading all your orders but their feeds represent a reasonable orderbook.

I have funding at prop firms, the strategy is different to my own capital, my own capital is fairly autopilot now and provides a realistic return, not a leveraged return but does a large amount of volume as stated. With the prop firm money, I am doing things that I wouldn't do on my own money and I know, like all retail traders, my prop firm experience has a time limit on it. I have pulled out a lot from FTMO, MFF and TFTP over the last year-ish so I'm not concerned by it but I am realistic enough to know that I will lose my accounts some day., actually in a bit of a losing streak right now since last payouts. I blame the summer heat as its always someone/thing elses fault.
  • #9,719
  • Aug 5, 2022 5:06pm Aug 5, 2022 5:06pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} Most prop firms right now are looking for people to help with price feeds and flushing out the cheaters. Its something that I do well, but probably you and most retail traders hate. Providing a true market condition basically makes retail traders uncomfortable because they experience slippage and execution speed delays, a lot of it is due to metatraders short comings but also just lack of knowledge. For example, a user complaining about 10 pips of slippage during NFP, thats not the providers issue its the users issue as they do not understand...
It's only someone else's fault if you're a lib....blame Trump
When you say your time is limited with the props......are you referring to regulation, the firms blowing up from not being a sustainable model or just blowing up your own accounts?
  • #9,720
  • Edited 5:31pm Aug 5, 2022 5:13pm | Edited 5:31pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} My other specialty is hedging strategy.
So if reverse trading losing traders do not work for the prop firms and the even cannot A book the profitable ones due to excessive lot sizes and trading conditions, how does copy trading on their live accounts work for the prop firms ? Or do you wanted to say taking challenge fees is the only real true income for prop firms ? Or do they really need to fine tune their copy trading like a large reputable broker. So they are doing the same thing like broker here and just take some additional challenge fees ?
Is the trick from copying orders the assumption not having toxic flow (at least in the sum) so the prop firm is waiting for some adverse move of a few points or pips and then copy the order to live account, if they do it anyway ? What do you think then about TD365 cfd broker with fixed spreads. For EU and GU it is about 0.6 pips with max lot size being 25 lots per side. They say they have also fixed spreads around news and their backup is with Barclays. So can this be realistic in any way too or ?
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