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  • #37,541
  • Jun 7, 2024 1:18pm Jun 7, 2024 1:18pm
Dow is pure easy money if their isn't any 30% consistency rule i would have made 400% in last 4 days clear setups free money.

1. First dow goes up 70-80 points in asian then you know london going to smack it down below the day open then Nyopen will make it fly and then a big retrace candle between 12m-2pm and then retrace back up till the end of the day.... this is how its been for few days.
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Extreme gut feeling trader
  • #37,542
  • Jun 7, 2024 1:20pm Jun 7, 2024 1:20pm
Quoting Stoneyrocks
{quote} then 5ers is the safest bet around…?
Maybe, I think this is where brokers step in with existing licenses.
  • #37,543
  • Jun 7, 2024 1:21pm Jun 7, 2024 1:21pm
Quoting Tobiazzek
{quote} So the props operating In US and EU/UK are going to need licensing( which I imagine only a few will get like FTMO FXIFY or ACG) and they will need to cut leverage. I guess also even something like 5ers will have to have certain licenses to be able to onboard clients from these countries. Are there other additional things that will come out of this? You mentioned FTMO being possibly held accountable for past activity. If so wouldn’t all props in these countries be closed down due to this? I have little knowledge of the topic so I’m just trying...
Anyone operating in the jurisdictions where the regulator is forming these (legal) opinions will be subject to past scrutiny. Futures or forex, doesn't matter. Unless someone fights them and wins but thats both expensive, time consuming and lengthy.
  • #37,544
  • Jun 7, 2024 1:25pm Jun 7, 2024 1:25pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} Anyone operating in the jurisdictions where the regulator is forming these (legal) opinions will be subject to past scrutiny. Futures or forex, doesn't matter. Unless someone fights them and wins but thats both expensive, time consuming and lengthy.
Hummm..... that's a good point because it's not the case of new laws (which could not be retroactive) but more an interpretation of laws already existent (and though applicable).
  • #37,545
  • Jun 7, 2024 1:36pm Jun 7, 2024 1:36pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Hummm..... that's a good point because it's not the case of new laws (which could not be retroactive) but more an interpretation of laws already existent (and though applicable).
A friend was trying to get in via new frame work, the regulators response is "we can fit this into existing frame work" although that framework is flawed for the prop model and in that place there are props operating. Which would mean they are illegal. The proposed was far more prop specific and safe for consumers (reserves, disclosures, revenue from trading as well as fees etc.)

The one thing that I think would really nail the coffin of prop is KYC upfront before purchase. Its expensive - you pay even for failed KYC. We know a bunch of props are happy bot users, you could bot someones kyc process to bankruptcy. The crossover between existing frame work and prop operations is flimsy at best, but maybe the idea is to punish those of the past an thats why new framework wont be written? I have heard of lobbying from brokers in the ESMA to get rid of props as well as the US. But its all speculation as the regulator is neither being transparent nor presenting its ideas/opinions publicly for the consumers to decide. So until something finally appears, we guess.
  • #37,546
  • Jun 7, 2024 1:47pm Jun 7, 2024 1:47pm
Quoting Expo33
{quote} So some random no name trader scrub didn't get paid because he broke the rules and says 95% of traders aren't getting paid with zero evidence to prove that. Thx for enlightening us Maybe you should stick to the one thing you're good at; tickling Karl's testicles.
My favorite is phantomtrader clown with her "Someone in another group told me" and "The group I'm in is reliable."

Totally believable


EDIT: If you notice, its only two people tugging on each other, much like here.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #37,547
  • Jun 7, 2024 2:43pm Jun 7, 2024 2:43pm
Quoting Cryptosurf
{quote} My favorite is phantomtrader clown with her "Someone in another group told me" and "The group I'm in is reliable." Totally believable EDIT: If you notice, its only two people tugging on each other, much like here.
Yes, according to our 2 resident experts..........all forex props are a scam and all futures props are great except the ones they don't like.
  • #37,548
  • Jun 7, 2024 2:48pm Jun 7, 2024 2:48pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} A friend was trying to get in via new frame work, the regulators response is "we can fit this into existing frame work" although that framework is flawed for the prop model and in that place there are props operating. Which would mean they are illegal. The proposed was far more prop specific and safe for consumers (reserves, disclosures, revenue from trading as well as fees etc.) The one thing that I think would really nail the coffin of prop is KYC upfront before purchase. Its expensive - you pay even for failed KYC. We know a bunch of...
Damn that doesn't sound good, looks like all we can hope for is that on the forex side at least FTMO and 5ers survive, and topstep and apex on futures side... If not then the trading business is gonna become even harder.
  • #37,549
  • Jun 7, 2024 3:16pm Jun 7, 2024 3:16pm
Quoting Tobiazzek
{quote} Damn that doesn't sound good, looks like all we can hope for is that on the forex side at least FTMO and 5ers survive, and topstep and apex on futures side... If not then the trading business is gonna become even harder.
Prop firms don’t necessarily make trading any easier, the disciplined learned should follow with you to your own private account.

IMO people really shouldn’t attach themselves solely to any of these firms for long term financial dependence. They are there to provide capital for your own private account.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #37,550
  • Jun 7, 2024 3:35pm Jun 7, 2024 3:35pm
I am not doing FX things at the moment as its an election year ( I consult other data related things as well ). But I can say without question that brokerage data and prop data is the same the only difference is the position size and the traders being less likely to take losses before a stop loss / at all. If a UK or EU broker is saying that 70% of traders lose money (which doesnt mean 30% make money as there are a lot of break even traders) then the actual traders with some sort of calculated edge in prop is less than 1%. The chances of someone making money from a prop or from a broker is likely the same, the difference is scale and upfront risk only.
  • #37,551
  • Jun 7, 2024 3:56pm Jun 7, 2024 3:56pm
Quoting Takisd
I am not doing FX things at the moment as its an election year ( I consult other data related things as well ). But I can say without question that brokerage data and prop data is the same the only difference is the position size and the traders being less likely to take losses before a stop loss / at all. If a UK or EU broker is saying that 70% of traders lose money (which doesnt mean 30% make money as there are a lot of break even traders) then the actual traders with some sort of calculated edge in prop is less than 1%. The chances of someone...
If you are comparing me depositing 10K in a forex broker vs me with a max DD 10K in a 100K prop funded account, I agree.

However, 10K in a forex broker cost me 10K, while in a prop, assuming a $500 challenge, cost me aprox $500 : 50% : 66% = 1.515 (assuming a TP of 10% in phase 1 and 5% in phase 2).
So, overall, even a losing trader can make money in a prop.
  • #37,552
  • Jun 7, 2024 3:58pm Jun 7, 2024 3:58pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} If you are comparing me depositing 10K in a forex broker vs me with a max DD 10K in a 100K prop funded account, I agree. However, 10K in a forex broker cost me 10K, while in a prop, assuming a $500 challenge, cost me aprox $500 : 50% : 66% = 1.515 (assuming a TP of 10% in phase 1 and 5% in phase 2). So, overall, even a losing trader can make money in a prop.
Yes the upfront risk is the difference.
  • #37,553
  • Jun 7, 2024 4:04pm Jun 7, 2024 4:04pm
If I want to keep an index position in Apex for several days, am I right in assuming that I can close the position everyday a bit before 17:00 ET and reopen it at 18:00 ET ?

Of course I would suffer commission, slippage and open gap (positive or negative) everyday but I don't think they prevent this, right ?
  • #37,554
  • Jun 7, 2024 5:28pm Jun 7, 2024 5:28pm
Quoting Capablanca
If I want to keep an index position in Apex for several days, am I right in assuming that I can close the position everyday a bit before 17:00 ET and reopen it at 18:00 ET ? Of course I would suffer commission, slippage and open gap (positive or negative) everyday but I don't think they prevent this, right ?
You can, nothing wrong with that.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #37,555
  • Jun 7, 2024 5:44pm Jun 7, 2024 5:44pm
Quoting Takisd
But its all speculation as the regulator is neither being transparent nor presenting its ideas/opinions publicly for the consumers to decide. So until something finally appears, we guess.
-This is a big problem that we currently see repeatedly unfolding here in the States... instead of regulators assisting businesses that are seeking guidance, they are, instead, acting purely as enforcers even when it is obviously clear that some companies are eager to satisfy regulatory compliance requirements and are desperate for clarification.

This is not the way that things should be. This creates an us vs. them mentality, while slowly distorting ideals regarding what sort of role regulators should actually be playing. We have seen the dirty tactics played out by both, the SEC and the CFTC as of late, as a result of this currently-mutated perspective. Using blanket regulation and retroactive enforcement is not (should not be) the solution here.

Any decisions made regarding regulation in this area need to be carefully considered because the carryover implications could be very serious, and once that door becomes open, it becomes very difficult to close. Given the current climate, it seems very likely that certain agendas and interest groups are at play here, that do not carry our best interests in mind. My hope would be that any decision made by affected businesses to forfeit their position in an attempt to avoid costly legal battles, would not be done so lightly.
  • #37,556
  • Edited 7:33pm Jun 7, 2024 6:34pm | Edited 7:33pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-This is a big problem that we currently see repeatedly unfolding here in the States... instead of regulators assisting businesses that are seeking guidance, they are, instead, acting purely as enforcers even when it is obviously clear that some companies are eager to satisfy regulatory compliance requirements and are desperate for clarification. This is not the way that things should be. This creates an us vs. them mentality, while slowly distorting ideals regarding what sort of role regulators should actually be playing. We have seen the...
More like prosecution than enforcement. They stalk potential victims for a shakedown.

I remember Brian Armstrong discussing how they had a SEC person in their (Coinbase) office for months, working with them so they could stay on the right side, only to get blindsided by a lawsuit and demanding user’s information.

Was nothing more then a fishing expedition for the SEC in search of way to extort money from them.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #37,557
  • Jun 7, 2024 9:34pm Jun 7, 2024 9:34pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-This is a big problem that we currently see repeatedly unfolding here in the States... instead of regulators assisting businesses that are seeking guidance, they are, instead, acting purely as enforcers even when it is obviously clear that some companies are eager to satisfy regulatory compliance requirements and are desperate for clarification. This is not the way that things should be. This creates an us vs. them mentality, while slowly distorting ideals regarding what sort of role regulators should actually be playing. We have seen the...
ALL executive agencies (most of which are unconstitutional and should not exist) have become like this. It's systemic.
  • #37,558
  • Jun 8, 2024 2:55am Jun 8, 2024 2:55am
Quoting Cryptosurf
I remember Brian Armstrong discussing how they had a SEC person in their (Coinbase) office for months, working with them so they could stay on the right side, only to get blindsided by a lawsuit and demanding user’s information. Was nothing more then a fishing expedition for the SEC in search of way to extort money from them.
-Yes. I remember him talking about that. And although I try to approach these things with an objective, open mind, understanding that there are always multiple sides to every story, and that some of these companies may say one thing while actually doing another etc., I also see certain, highly-questionable actions carried out by various regulatory groups that cannot simply be misinterpreted as something else.
  • #37,559
  • Jun 8, 2024 4:17am Jun 8, 2024 4:17am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} Maybe, I think this is where brokers step in with existing licenses.
So couldn't the brokers that have props like 5ers, FXIFY, ICmarkets just have the offering through their actual broker page instead of ex ICmarkets having a whole different thing set up like ICFunded when the EU etc would decide that props have to be regulated? And have the offering within the standards of the EU laws?
  • #37,560
  • Jun 8, 2024 4:43am Jun 8, 2024 4:43am
Quoting Tobiazzek
{quote} So couldn't the brokers that have props like 5ers, FXIFY, ICmarkets just have the offering through their actual broker page instead of ex ICmarkets having a whole different thing set up like ICFunded when the EU etc would decide that props have to be regulated? And have the offering within the standards of the EU laws?
Yes but they could jeopardize their license due to various factors. One factor for example is that the prop firm doesn't do KYC upfront nor comply with various AML/CTF requirements that a broker does.

Personally, I am failing to see how a prop fits into the frame work, but I am not up to date since 2014 on the newer rules so there could be some things. The most clear is Australia, it is with certainty the prop firm requires a license there and they have said so as well. The other jurisdictions are far less clear and their framework doesn't really match. Canada being the most far out. The CFTC are saying they have jurisdiction, I question that personally but they have stated in the MFF case their position quite clearly and the fact that didnt vibrate through the industry shows just how mentally inept the US prop firms are (futures and CFDs). Their legal teams are better call saul tier it seems. FTMO seems to have heard the warning but others have not. For the EU its a bit like fitting a square peg in a round hole they believe it fits, they might have a point that it fits but there are many other whataboutisms to ask. For example, the AML CTF requirements dont fit the model, the KYC requirements dont fit the model and the "fair pricing" requirements likely do not fit the model. Add to this that PFOF is now illegal in the EU and it feels like they are trying to turn all these prop firms into market makers. If they do that, then even the best of the EU firms aren't equipped to effectively run and their sales will fall significantly due to the hurdles thrown in place to consumers.

My position is that using existing framework is not well thought out if you actually want to regulate this specific market place. But with bureaucrats its the likely pathway and that means that most props will be significantly offshore with no protections.
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