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  • #24,361
  • Oct 19, 2023 7:34am Oct 19, 2023 7:34am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} I think he would discard it. Andy received the refund fees with his first payout and he received all payouts after that (they first paid and then kicked him out). Any prop can terminate the contract at any time without providing the reasons. I thin NOK already said that no part is obliged to work with the other forever.
I think so too, that I read this in every T&C of any prop, that they reserve the right to terminate the contract to any time. So I got paid and then they terminated. It looks okay from their T&Cs, how could I complain on that ? (That they are in duty to give me my funded accounts for unlimited time & payout me unlimited times too?)
  • #24,362
  • Oct 19, 2023 8:00am Oct 19, 2023 8:00am
Not a fan of prop challenges.
Too many times they make up rules to suit themselves. Plus mff totally disappeared.
  • #24,363
  • Oct 19, 2023 8:49am Oct 19, 2023 8:49am
Quoting Takisd
Sorry for my absence (although i am sure people enjoyed it). Been travelling back home. The funded engineer stats, plus their behavior from an SEO level, show stress. But they are not the only ones. Anyone notice how most of the MFFX staff have left? Trouble in paradise.
They used to able to add 30% more new clients every month and probably lost 30% in September so that obviously makes it difficult for them.
  • #24,364
  • Oct 19, 2023 9:12am Oct 19, 2023 9:12am
Quoting TrAndy1
If the CEO Bespoke can kick me out just because I have a professional background then also every other prop firm maybe subject to do so (just to say it in different words or for any other "reason"). Bespoke feared because of my background I could do many more payouts that will hurt them. That is the only possible explanation.
they dont fear you will win longterm, but they fear with your strategy you maybe win short term over some months or midterm over some years and then they still need payout you.
thats the problem , that props attract the people who fail often in private accounts and still can win with prop (even with a strategy without edge - and i dont mean your strategy has no edge, this i dont know of course and you will know after 2500 consistent done trades often).

this people you need to kick out very fast, or you get big problems. in b book broker this people would still accepted, depends on strategy they win. as example martingale would be loved by b book, latency arbitrage (ok its not trading, its more or less cheating) of course would not be payed out one cent.

the goal for prop is kick out anyone with wins until you can use this person for marketing reason. but when you do marketing for them (direct by write about them in review or forums or indirect by show the wins around in youtube/forums and speak about without talk to much) , dont do it with total deep calculation numbers, or people recognize this model only work when they kick out the good traders (so many see this system will not work until some bigger cheating needs to be done)- so when you do this they will red flag you are bad marketing person. and when you are bad marketing person and have wins , thats a big no no. you had both, bad marketing for them (by posting showing numbers that never work with good traders inside) and by make wins - so of course they want you out! life is simple, when you did not see a reason you did overlook a simple fact often.
  • #24,365
  • Oct 19, 2023 9:19am Oct 19, 2023 9:19am
Quoting Trader191
{quote} they dont fear you will win longterm, but they fear with your strategy you maybe win short term over some months or midterm over some years and then they still need payout you. thats the problem , that props attract the people who fail often in private accounts and still can win with prop (even with a strategy without edge - and i dont mean your strategy has no edge, this i dont know of course and you will know after 2500 consistent done trades often). this people you need to kick out very fast, or you get big problems. in b book broker...
Before they kicked me out I was positive for that prop firm. I said this here also very often defending them lonely here. It only changed after they kicked me out, which is reasonable I hope. So there was no bad marketing before that event. Of course this changed now.
  • #24,366
  • Oct 19, 2023 9:21am Oct 19, 2023 9:21am
Quoting Greg777
Not a fan of prop challenges. Too many times they make up rules to suit themselves. Plus mff totally disappeared.
that is normal of of any trading game! without this not one would start a trading game. prop sounds better then trading game from name or (good marketing).
casino, prop (the prop we speak here about, not the real prop), b book broker.... all this is counting as trading games and owner of this game created rules so he has the mathematical edge over the players. its so simple like this, this has nothing to do with real good broker account trading, thats the crazy thing, sometimes you see people mix real trading and prop in one sentence.
  • #24,367
  • Edited 9:36am Oct 19, 2023 9:24am | Edited 9:36am
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Before they kicked me out I was positive for that prop firm. I said this here also very often defending them lonely here. It only changed after they kicked me out, which is reasonable I hope. So there was no bad marketing before that event. Of course this changed now.
no, i dont mean that you spoke bad about this company. this you did not and this is called bad marketing of course too (but i spoke about a different version of bad marketing for them, any company who need to survive to cheat a little bit too has some other look on what is bad or good marketing the a normal company).
for prop is bad marketing also when you go in numbers in details too and calculate all and speak about , because by this you show many people that prop cant work out without kick out successful traders, when you calculate the numbers and know they cant do a book.
  • #24,368
  • Oct 19, 2023 9:33am Oct 19, 2023 9:33am
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Before they kicked me out I was positive for that prop firm. I said this here also very often defending them lonely here. It only changed after they kicked me out, which is reasonable I hope. So there was no bad marketing before that event. Of course this changed now.
and think same like a casino, casinos have a "red flag" list for people who win to often and are not allowed to play any more inside(most are simple card counter in black jack), and prop will have same red flag people list. so trading same person after you get burned/red flagged can get complicated in all other prop after this too (difficult to know if you are on the list or not), so you need open account under new name of one in family and gets ore and more complicated.
  • #24,369
  • Edited 10:03am Oct 19, 2023 9:49am | Edited 10:03am
Quoting Trader191
{quote} and think same like a casino, casinos have a "red flag" list for people who win to often and are not allowed to play any more inside(most are simple card counter in black jack), and prop will have same red flag people list. so trading same person after you get burned/red flagged can get complicated in all other prop after this too (difficult to know if you are on the list or not), so you need open account under new name of one in family and gets ore and more complicated.
If that CEO of Bespoke is a real and bigger asshole he would try to ban me from all the other props too. By badmouthing about me as much as possible meaning that I am the consistent enemy of any prop. Yeah...maybe another reason to stay from props now, before I find out before it comes to payout they do not want me too. He has all my Identity card details together with my email address together with some sample trades of my trading style. So easy to get identified then too on other props.

But of course he could only make a phone call because if the other props had proof about what he is saying about me in black and white it could mean breaking the laws of data protection and privacy which is not allowed and usually can be sued with €100.000 as I know. In any case I would get notice of this I could claim my 100k legal claim (as prize) before court here. And this with very good chances to win! Of course this would not help me on the other props not accepting me as funded trader with them. They could also terminate the contract any time. They only needed to say NOT the truth by inventing any kind of reason for that.
  • #24,370
  • Oct 19, 2023 10:07am Oct 19, 2023 10:07am
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} If that CEO of Bespoke is a real and bigger asshole he would try to ban me from all the other props too. By badmouthing about me as much as possible meaning that I am the consistent enemy of any prop. Yeah...maybe another reason to stay from props now, before I find out before it comes to payout they do not want me too. He has all my Identity card details together with my email address together with some sample trades of my trading style. So easy to get identified then too on other props. But of course he could only make a phone call because...
depend what is in contract inside, when they can use your data for company reasons, then maybe this topic is included.
but all together, to bring this topic to law is difficult, because to difficult to get prove someone has get infos from special contact, he could simple say he read about in forum.

and yes, you would need to change your trading style. maybe open eurusd and usdchf same time for eurchf you wanted to open and so on.... prop is like casino cheating always more work to hide then to trade. because you cant build your own casino inside a casino, only inside a real trading account with a good broker.
  • #24,371
  • Oct 19, 2023 10:12am Oct 19, 2023 10:12am
This law of data protection and privacy is also the same when the prop like Bespoke is checking if any trader is reverse trading across prop firm accounts. They cannot exchange information about that without written permitted agreement upfront on that. Also the limited liability does not count here as it is in the case of T&C of Bespoke as example because it is intended from the prop firm to ask third parties about trades of someone specific. In case they are exchanging sensible information about the trader they already broke the law, which is again a 100k fine. The EU is very strict about that. I guess in USA they are even stricter. So exchanging personal info could be even much harder punished. And I know they are checking reverse trading across different prop firm accounts as they said so in their Discord (of Bespoke). That is not allowed. I am not affected by this. But in any case someone is affected he would only need some proof to win an easy case before court. And the fines are not the ones mentioned in T&C, they are orientated on the laws.
  • #24,372
  • Oct 19, 2023 10:20am Oct 19, 2023 10:20am
Same is with TFT like Angelo is exchanging info about traders trades data to reverse engineer their strategies. You simply cannot sell anyones personal data without clearly written agreement upfront. And then even it is very difficult to do so, because it can be also be prohibited by law which is in the USA clearly the case as they are very strict. That alone could make him legal claims of many millions. It is a similar case when a broker is selling your orders info to third parties so those third parties have an advantage to get you executed at a worse fill. Also not allowed and published with widely coverage in the medias. I just say this because I think everyone heard this before. Exchanging and selling personal data to third parties which you gave the prop firm before is not allowed. Usually the laws are very strict here and only with few exceptions it can be agreed upfront the Terms and conditions without automatically violating the laws. But these are exceptions clearly. You just cannot write anything you want as prop firm in its T&C and then say I am fine and I cannot get sued for nothing because the client has agreed to it. This is not allowed too.
  • #24,373
  • Oct 19, 2023 10:38am Oct 19, 2023 10:38am
Also I think if a prop firm has too discretionary rules about denying a funded account after passing a challenge, this is also subject to the regulators and could be fined too. Because of the fact there is no real profit split. Only virtual profits and no real money behind it, so the prop has no real intention to deny anykind of "too risky" trading style, because it is all b-booking. Those rules are only design to help the prop firm to keep the challenge fees. Of course this is more difficult to show for the regulators and not so easy to define as the different prop firm rules are widely different. But in any case the rules are too discretionary or there are too many open interpretations possible, this does not rule out in favor of the prop firm when the regulators have an eye on them. All misleading bad practices a lot of prop firms show.
  • #24,374
  • Edited 11:35am Oct 19, 2023 10:49am | Edited 11:35am
Another thing is, that the prop firm as business company working with customers is also in duty to documentate all things also within a legal framework which is given from the country its laws. So in case they do so, the regulators have everything they need in black and white well documentated and sorted. In case the prop firm have not done proper documentation this again can be fined too. I do not think every prop firm has a compliance offer and all the other stuff to do all bookkeeping and documentation I guess. But in case they do so, they are even dumber in most cases as they are guilty even faster when it comes out to regulators what they have done.
  • #24,375
  • Oct 19, 2023 10:58am Oct 19, 2023 10:58am
All the websites of the prop firms, all of them no exception even on FTMO, make only sense in their marketing purpose if that is true what they say. So as conclusion some significant amount of trades must be copied or A-booked by the prop firm to make their website content valid, or they are subject to a bigger fraud cause. All the rules they have in place only make sense when there is real money behind or at least some trades copied to the real market (but not that 99.9% of all trades are b-booked only). That would not certify any of their rules and all what they say on their website.
  • #24,376
  • Oct 19, 2023 11:31am Oct 19, 2023 11:31am
The day they are obliged to do all that the online prop industry is dead or won't be interesting at all.

Unfortunately with financially regulators there is no middle terms or reasonability. Wherever they put their foot on it's like an atomic bomb. All is destroyed.

That's why I always said I prefer the far-west, full of cowboys, than a regulated space. Because I know a regulated space will evaporate the industry.

It was better that people were sharing experiences to avoid scammers. Sometimes we get burned but that's part of the game. Nothing god will come from regulation IMO.
  • #24,377
  • Oct 19, 2023 11:41am Oct 19, 2023 11:41am
It just reminds me that most or nearly all props do not give you a proper bill when you have bought a challenge. That can only cause problems when you want to declare your expenses on the tax side. It might be well intended that you should not tell anybody that you have bought a challenge but also that they no proper bookkeeping and docmentation of that. Where is the problem on giving proper bills to the traders when they buy a challenge (as fee) ? Opinions on that what the reason(s) could be?
  • #24,378
  • Oct 19, 2023 11:41am Oct 19, 2023 11:41am
Quoting Capablanca
The day they are obliged to do all that the online prop industry is dead or won't be interesting at all. Unfortunately with financially regulators there is no middle terms or reasonability. Wherever they put their foot on it's like an atomic bomb. All is destroyed. That's why I always said I prefer the far-west, full of cowboys, than a regulated space. Because I know a regulated space will evaporate the industry. It was better that people were sharing experiences to avoid scammers. Sometimes we get burned but that's part of the game. Nothing god...
1000% true. Government regulation will kill it, just like it does everything. Between this forum and doing some due dilligence, I didn't get burned once by any firm EVER. The only entity I got burned by was the CFTC.....and not the first time by any means.
In a nutshell, if you have slightly above average intelligence, understand a little bit about the market you are involved in and ARE NOT A DEGEN GAMBLER, we all did much better self regulating to avoid the scams. The only thing the government is doing is screwing the good traders.
  • #24,379
  • Oct 19, 2023 11:54am Oct 19, 2023 11:54am
Quoting TrAndy1
It just reminds me that most or nearly all props do not give you a proper bill when you have bought a challenge. That can only cause problems when you want to declare your expenses on the tax side. It might be well intended that you should not tell anybody that you have bought a challenge but also that they no proper bookkeeping and docmentation of that. Where is the problem on giving proper bills to the traders when they buy a challenge (as fee) ? Opinions on that what the reason(s) could be?
you already pay tax when u buy the challenge, nowdays tax is included with almost all purchases
  • #24,380
  • Oct 19, 2023 12:20pm Oct 19, 2023 12:20pm
Quoting Capablanca
I have no idea what you're talking about. When I clicked in that telegram link it said something like private group of such.
-Not sure if this is related, but from what I understand about owls, they are often used to replace actual memories (and entities) whenever ET make contact with humans. It's not always an owl, though, it could be a deer or some other kind of animal. So, the owls are not what they seem.
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